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 WWF Nominees
Wrestling_KO Mike
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 12:22 AM





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THE LIST:

Bret Hart vs. Jerry Lawler, WWF 8/30/93 - 3 YES
Mr Perfect vs. Doink, WWF 5/24/93 - 4 YES

THE NOMINEES:

Flair vs. Perfect, WWF 1/18/93
Jerry Lawler vs. Tito Santana, 3/21/93 - 1 YES
Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow, WWF 6/13/93 - 1 YES, 1 NO
Bret Hart vs. Perfect, 6/13/93 - 2 YES

This post has been edited by Wrestling_KO Mike on Apr 1 2011, 03:22 PM
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ditch
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 03:57 AM





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NOMINATIONS

Flair vs Perfect, 1/18
One of those rare 'Hennig works face' bouts, and I think he's great in the role, showing determination and 'earning' Flair's reactions more than the standard Flair opponent. Heenan on commentary is a cherry on top.

Bret Hart vs Perfect, 6/13
A fine technical duel, though it doesn't get into a high enough gear to make it a global MOTYC. The last great Curt Hennig match.
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Wrestling_KO Mike
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 08:02 AM





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Nominate:

Mr Perfect vs Doink, 5/24

c/p, I'll definitely give it a rewatch:

http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...hp?showtopic=50

Alright, I clearly need to see more of Matt Bourne's work as he looked amazing here. The vicious stomps and boots to Hennig were ridiculously great, but what really stood out was how Doink worked his way back into the match after getting his leg ripped apart. Throwing Hennig over the top rope, pushing him into the ring post, knocking him off the apron etc. are all heel-ish spots, but here they were done more as an act of desperation.

I loved Doink not being able to escape the head scissors as it helped establish the lower ranked heel vs. main event technician story. Hennig reversing a Fujiwara armbar and stomping Doink's knee was just beautiful pro wrestling. If it wasn't for the disappointing finish, I'd say this was better than the lesser Bret/Hennig match.
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ditch
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 12:57 PM





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Which Perfect/Doink match was the last in their series? That one?
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Wrestling_KO Mike
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 02:46 PM





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Yeah.

Here are the other two matches in their series:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2amif_do...fect-kotr_sport 5/1/93

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x54ejs_do...fect-kotr_sport 5/16/93

Second one is the better of the two, although a lot of that has to do with the sound being out of synch in the first. Both matches are really fun.
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ditch
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 03:42 PM





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YES to the 5/24 match. Good series, with the last match being the best on its own merits and also paying off the first two.
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KillSteve
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 04:20 PM





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Nominate

Bret Hart vs Jerry Lawler, 8/30

I'm not sure if this should be counted as it's technically two matches, but it's basically one big angle with two awesome matches and great Lawler shit-talking on the mic. Lawler's promo before hand is so awesome. The Bret vs Doink part is a pretty fun established star beating down a lower guy match. The whole Lawler injury angle is glorious and executed perfectly. The actual Hart vs Lawler match itself is everything it should have been, an awesome brawl and a really satisfying pay-off to the feud. If you look at this as one package it might be the WWF MOTY.

Bret Hart vs Perfect, 6/13 - YES. As far as I'm aware this has always been the consensous best Hennig WWF match and I see no reason to disagree. Great chops from Hennig, some big bumps, good heat and drama, and comes off feeling like an "epic".

Mr Perfect vs Doink, 5/24 - YES. I think Mike more or less covered it. Good established star vs lower guy story, good focus on the leg by Hennig, Doink is a pretty dislikable heel. Actually kind of dug the finish too as far as over-booked BS finishes go. It's not a MOTYC in the grand scheme of things but it stands out in a weak year for the WWF.

Flair vs Perfect, 1/18 - Is this the loser leaves town match?
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Hijo del Parties
Posted: Aug 27 2010, 05:18 PM


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QUOTE (KillSteve @ Aug 27 2010, 12:20 PM)
If you look at this as one package it might be the WWF MOTY.

It absolutely is. I've heard smart people pan this match and I don't know why: it's kind of chicken shit to run this as a PPV main event insofar as it's as much an angle as it is a match, but what you get is really next wave for early 90s WWF. Lawler's heeling was so much mature and creepy and excellent compared to everything else they were doing, and bringing Borne, the second best heel they had in as this double team abuse squad for Hart was well done. Major YES vote.
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Victator
Posted: Aug 28 2010, 09:10 AM





Group: Wrestling KO
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There is a really good DOINK VS Bossman match out there.


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Matt Franklin
Posted: Aug 31 2010, 09:18 AM


Unregistered









NOMINATE
Bret Hart vs Bam Bam Bigelow 06/13

My WWF MOTY. This is the KOTR final and in my opinion is superior to any match of the Sting/Vader series (though the strap match may be close). Everything was booked perfectly leading into the final, with Bammer fresh from receiving a bye in the semis, while Bret the valiant babyface had two hard fought contests against top talent (Razor & Perfect). Brets' comebacks are perfectly timed, with Bam Bam only giving him glimpses of hope before cutting him back off. The false finish/restart works well, and the finish is perfect - the technical babyface using his technique to overcome the giant. The crowd is hot for all of this, and JR, Savage and Heenan do an awesome job on commentary.

VOTING
Mr Perfect vs Doink, 5/24 YES
I love this match, it really shows what a talent Borne could be when he was motivated. Mike mentioned some of the cool matwork, and it really comes across as more gritty than most WWF work of the era. I agree with KillSteve about the finish, it isn't a clean-as-a-whistle AJPW 90's finish, but for a mid 90's WWF TV match it is fine.

Bret Hart vs Perfect, 6/13 YES
While I feel the final is the best match of the KOTR tournament (and probably KOTR history really, what else is there?), this is a close second. It's been a while since I watched the SS '91 match to compare, but I feel that while this is slower paced it is the more smartly worked match of the two. The face/face dynamic is played well, with Hennig pulling out some of his heel tactics in desperation.

Bret Hart vs Jerry Lawler, 8/30 YES
While I would vote yes for the Lawler match by itself (such a heated, hate-filled brawl for the fed), as a whole segment (Pre-match King interview, Doink match, sneak attack, post-match) it is one of the most entertaining 30-odd minutes of programming in PPV history. Everyone plays their roles perfectly, it's a shame Lawler never got a chance to do anything remotely this good afterwards.

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Phil Schneider
Posted: Mar 4 2011, 06:31 AM


DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM


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NOMINATION

Jerry Lawler v. Tito Santana 3/21

Lawler debuts in MSG and immediately gets the crowd riled up hardcore. He starts shit talking the rotten apple, and offers to let Sanatana out of the match if he kisses his feet. First part of the match has Tito bumping Lawler around, while Jerry cheap shots stalls and talks shit to the crowd. It is really great to see an old pro break out some classic tricks on a new stage and get folks screaming for his scalp like that. The match really kicks into gear when Lawler gets the advantage and hits his beautiful piledriver. He then grabs the house mike and tries to start a "wetback" chant, I am surprised a young Fat Joe didn't jump the rail and stab him in the ribs. He goes to crotch Tito on the ringpost, but Santana pulls his legs back causing Lawler to smash his face into the ringpost as only Jerry can. The have a heated bit of brawling before Santana tries a sunset flip, which Lawler sits down and grab the ropes for the pin. They then keep brawling and end up spilling into the crowd exchanging shots among the fans. The last five minutes of this were off the charts, and if that section was longer I could see rating this Epic. The first was fun mid card MSG, the second part was main event MSC.
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ScToTeE
Posted: Mar 24 2011, 12:46 PM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


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Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow - WWF 06.13.1993
I'm a bit disillusioned by this match. What I see is a perfectly fine big/little guy match that acquires greater hype because of how it slides into the mythology of the Bret Hart character. It's a keynote 'victory', I believe, in establishing Hart's main-event credentials but how much should you attribute that to the performers in the ring? Surely the bookers deserve a lot of credit and the enthusiastic commentary made the match seem 'epic'. Look at the match in isolation though, without knowing what was to come for Bret Hart, without the 'meaningfulness' of the KOTR context, without Savage, Heenan and Ross telling us how impressive Hart's fortitude is, without knowing what Hart went through earlier in the night, in effect as a match by itself it's not nearly as impressive. Not bad by any means - it's a good match of its kind - and all the other factors could've been undermined had Bigelow and Hart blown their roles. But to what extent do we consider this a great match as compared to a good match made to seem better by a range of other factors beyond two wrestlers wrestling? Had Hart and Bigelow had exactly the same match on another night would we still be calling it 'great'? Should I really be holding it against this match because there are exterior forces that are just as vital to the match's appeal than the match itself?

To me, this seems like taking HBK/Ramon I over superior ladder matches simply because it happened at WrestleMania. Or looking past the fact that Benoit/HBK/HHH was a by-the-numbers triple threat, praising it excessively because of the meaningfulness of it being a WrestleMania main-event and it being Benoit's first world championship in the WWE. Same goes with Benoit/Orton at SummerSlam 2004. I thought the RAW rematch was better, certainly if we just look at the match itself, but there's the meaningfulness associated with Orton's title win and it being on a significant pay-per-view that make people balk at my opinion. Am I being a dork here? When people say 'MOTY' are they just talking about the qualities of the match itself, as in the actions of the wrestlers in the ring, or do we extend it to the whole package? Do we allow commentary, context (first KOTR) and significance within a larger narrative (Hart's career) raise 'good' matches to 'great' matches, or shove 'good' matches down to 'poor' matches?

All that rambling and I haven't talked about the match yet: I liked it. But I don't see Hart or Bigelow's actions in the ring as being anything 'great'. Standard big/little guy structure. Hart kept selling his old injuries. Bam Bam slowed down the match with holds and impactful bombs. Hart's hope bursts were spaced out well, with the momentum shift at ringside being particularly nice. They did nothing to harm the work of the other components putting over this match but, again, strip away those components and what we have is a good big/little guy match with no real claims to being anything special...

I don't know what my vote is on this. I think too much.
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ScToTeE
Posted: Mar 24 2011, 02:14 PM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


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Bret Hart vs. Mr Perfect - WWF 06.13.1993 (YES)
And I think this is better than Hart/Bigelow. This performance informs Hart/Bigelow to the degree that one has to wonder that had this not felt like such a war, or had Hart not sold his injuries as well, would the final match be as good? I also think the quality of this match is more bound to the specifics of what the two wrestlers did in the ring. Hennig's role-playing in this was great. It's face vs. face, but Hennig's growing heelishness swerves this away from the lame "I respect you, you respect me, lets hug after every exchange" crap. The KOTR tournament is important to both these guys so there's going to be competitive heat, not good-naturedness, and Hennig's desperation manifests into cheap tactics. It starts off subtle initially, a slight hair pull here and an advantageous hard chop there, but it grows as the fight progresses and soon he's taking blatant cheap shots and exploiting Hart's finger injury. It makes victory seem so much more significant than a fairly fought face/face showdown would achieve.

Then there's the aggressiveness. Hennig's chops were harsh as were Hart's kicks to Hennig's leg. And there was one sweetly sold forearm from Hart that almost was an uppercut. Both bump well for each other too, all contributing to an impression that this encounter was extremely hard fought. Again, without this specific match preceding it, would Hart/Bigelow be as good? Particularly when it comes to Hart as a sympathetic figure. The knowledge that Hart went through a really tough fight before the encounter with Bigelow adds greatly to that match, investing more meaning into Bret Hart being dominated beyond the simple story of big guy vs. little guy. It reaches the point that I think the match with Bigelow has to be seen as an extension of Hart's previous performances against Hennig and Ramon. Hart's showing for the whole night's duration is what really drives this event and ultimately makes the Final seem 'special'. Chapters in a greater whole. A three fall match. If we don't view Hart's three matches as one large performance, splitting each down to separate matches, then it's this match that I'd single out as 'great'. This match adds profoundly to the event's meaningfulness, including the Bigelow match, and it's more directly due to the quality of Hennig and Hart's actions in the ring. In isolation, and focusing purely on Hart and Hennig wrestling, this is still a great match.

So, therefore:

Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow - WWF 06.13.1993 (NO)
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ScToTeE
Posted: Mar 29 2011, 12:53 PM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


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Bret Hart vs. Jerry Lawler - WWF 08.30.1993 (YES)

Or more accurately, hell yes! This angle/match fucking ruled and it all comes down to superb role-playing from all involved: Lawler, Bret, Doink, Owen and Bruce, Bobby Heenan. I haven't seen much of Lawler as a heel but, man, he was great here. He exhibited such malice in his opening promo, he looked aggressive when choking and bashing Bret with the crutch and he stooge bumped well for Hart's punches. It would seem he learnt from having heels bump for HIS punches all those years previous. Bret Hart excelled in coveying his emotions during this, from frustration during the promo to hate when punching Lawler's face in. The momentum shift mid-way through the second match felt EPIC.

And then there's the rest of the cast: Doink was very good as the secondary heel. His quirky, creepy facial expressions were hilarious and I love the whole "he's an evil clown but also a great wrestler" schtick. Owen and Bruce Hart added great, outraged presences to the match. And Bobby Heenan screaming for Bret to release the sharpshooter made the final dramatic twist in the tale more compelling/shocking.
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Matt Franklin
Posted: Mar 30 2011, 06:49 AM


Unregistered










QUOTE
When people say 'MOTY' are they just talking about the qualities of the match itself, as in the actions of the wrestlers in the ring, or do we extend it to the whole package? Do we allow commentary, context (first KOTR) and significance within a larger narrative (Hart's career) raise 'good' matches to 'great' matches, or shove 'good' matches down to 'poor' matches?


I feel that the context in which a certain match takes place definitely informs our opinions of the match. When watching the Hart/Bigelow match, you have to have watched or at least be aware of how the tournament has progressed to get the most out of the match (Hart's two wars/Bigelow's bye). If you look at it strictly bell to bell and out of context, it may not be a MOTY. You have to remember that the match is being worked with the effects of the previous matches in mind. If they were to come out on Superstars and have this exact same match cold with no build or backstory, its likely that it would be seen as another run-of-the-mill good Bret Hart match. If you factor in the previous nights matches, the hot crowd, the commentary (which was excellent, especially Ross) and the crowd, then it raises the match from run-of-the-mill to something special.

It seems that you are holding these factors against this match, while praising the supporting characters and commentary in the Lawler angle/match. If the actual match between Bret and Lawler can be greater appreciated due to its entire presentation, why can't we see the Hart/Bigelow match as a culmination of a night long storyline, and even more if we look at the match in the context of Bret's career and how in kayfabe he was screwed out of the title and had the spotlight taken away from him at WM. This was the night he redeemed himself and proved that he was the man in the WWF in many people's eyes.
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ScToTeE
Posted: Mar 30 2011, 09:31 AM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


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Guess what? You're right. I was going to discuss Hart/Lawler within the context of my KOTR thoughts but I forgot. Seeing as there's no proof of that intent I'm just going to concede to having contradicted my own argument.

Basically I see a clash in voting trends within this thread. People are treating Hart's KOTR performance as separate matches whilst treating the Lawler/Hart SS angle as one entity. I made the same mistake. Both events, as you say, rely on previous matches in the night and on exterior influences (crowd, commentary) to create those 'special' atmospheres. Remove any of those cogs, or look at one cog in isolation, and they lose that quality which they help create when working in conjunction. Hart/Lawler is actually even more reliant on its various sections than KOTR, in my opinion.

QUOTE
It reaches the point that I think the match with Bigelow has to be seen as an extension of Hart's previous performances against Hennig and Ramon. Hart's showing for the whole night's duration is what really drives this event and ultimately makes the Final seem 'special'. Chapters in a greater whole. A three fall match. If we don't view Hart's three matches as one large performance, splitting each down to separate matches, then it's this match that I'd single out as 'great'.


Essentially I stand by this. But you are absolutely correct in noting my contradictions with Hart/Lawler. If we approached both KOTR and SS as one large whole, I'd say both are easily nomination worthy; if we are forced to scale things down to individual matches I'd say only Hart/Perfect can be singled out as 'great' from KOTR and nothing from SS. But all up I think it's agreed that both are fantastic for a total night's work. Honestly, if I had my way, I'd be treating both as larger performances.

So:

Bret Hart vs. Ramon, vs. Perfect, vs. Bigelow - WWF 06.13.1993 (YES)

Bret Hart vs. Doink, vs. Lawler - WWF 08.30.1993 (YES)

Or:

Bret Hart vs. Mr Perfect - WWF 06.13.1993 (YES)

Bret Hart vs. Bam Bam Bigelow - WWF 06.13.1993 (NO)

Bret Hart vs. Jerry Lawler - WWF 08.30.1993 (NO)

Whichever the WKO gods deem to be appropriate to the purpose of these nomination threads. I don't think my thoughts here are going to make people alter their votes. But, at the very least, I can acknowledge that these two nights in 1993 played host to superb extended performances in my list thread. Huzzah!

EDIT:

That said, I may be overlooking the emotional/investment factor here. So when you mention the importance of June 13th 1993 to the history of the Bret Hart character, kayfabe or not, I'm a bit more resistant of that. Maybe it's because Bret Hart, except his WCW stuff, was largely before I emerged as a wrestling fan. And, also, I'm suspicious of claims to historical importance because a lot of those 'moments' have more to do with the WWF/E 'choosing' how its characters and events are remembered.

Again, I refer to Hart/Ramon I. It's built up to be historically important in terms of the ladder match sub-genre and the career of Shawn Michaels. But it wasn't the first ladder match in the company. Hart/Michaels from 1992 was and that match laid a lot of the framework that is adopted by ladder matches over the past two decades. HBK/Ramon I added a few bigger bumps and dives off the ladder - archaic by today's standards. Meanwhile the sequel is better. So why is the original hyped so much? Because it adds better imagery for a montage of HBK's career, benefits his characterisation as 'Mr. Wrestlemania' and, by effacing the ladder match's history pre-HBK/Ramon I, the WWF/E in effect contributes to its dominant mythology of Wrestlemania being the event where 'special' things happen, foundations are laid, new ground is broken etc etc.

I'm not suggesting that's exactly what we're seeing here. It's not. But often the 'historical importance' for a character has more to do with the booking than the wrestler's performance on the night (and how the company refers to it later on). I get emotionally invested in Benoit/HHH/HBK because at one point I was a huge Benoit fan. But that doesn't stop me from seeing it as a run-of-the-mill triple threat, made to feel special by the result and the context. I don't want to praise that match simply because that's how they chose to give Benoit his world championship. But isn't that important for the history of that character? In kayfabe land that ushers Benoit into main-event status just like winning the KOTR re-established the Bret Hart character as "the man". Of course Benoit/HBK/HHH wasn't supported by good-to-great performances throughout the night ... but that's why I'm arguing for the KOTR matches to be seen/nominated as one entire performance, rather than breaking it down. It encourages them to be examined by their own merits, which isn't why they are highly regarded.

On the flipside I was emotionally invested in Guerrero's title win and I still think it's a very good match. That's in reference to what they did in the ring, not the result or the context. In fact, I was emotionally invested in all of Guerrero's title defenses because at the time I really wanted him to hold onto the belt. That takes the form of nostalgia nowadays and I still believe, when looking at the specifics of the match, that Guerrero/JBL is one of the greatest matches I've ever seen. An important moment for the character (and JBL), a sensational performance that validates that importance ... In fact, would that match be worth discussing at all if it weren't for how things came together and how the horrendous blade job became part of the match? Depending on how we discuss Bret Hart during KOTR 1993, I feel it can fall on either side of that. Hart/Bigelow in isolation feels more like Benoit/HBK/HHH - good but largely riding the coat-tails of their contexts (what happened before and the booking for KOTR, Wrestlemania and the booking for the latter). But if you take into account the whole KOTR event, the rest of Hart's performance really works hard towards creating the night's 'epic' feel, in a sense earning the importance the booking gives Hart's victory. Just like Guerrero/JBL, in my view. Bigelow/Hart on its own doesn't earn that significance. But included in a collection of performances throughout the night? It does.
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ScToTeE
Posted: Mar 31 2011, 08:35 AM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


Group: Wrestling KO
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Member No.: 366
Joined: 9-October 10



Mr Perfect vs. Doink the Clown - WWF 05.24.1993 (YES)

Fun series, with the final encounter really standing out on its own merits. The Doink character continues to grow on me and this match epitomises why: awesome theme music, making children in the crowd weep, the periodic twisted cackling, hilarious clown-like mannerisms like the exaggerated surprise when he slams Hennig on his injured arm, the way he goes about attacking Hennig's arm conveying 'skill'/'knowledge' as a 'technical' wrestler etc. Bourne's performance here captures what the Doink character is billed as perfectly: "an evil clown who is also a great technical wrestler". He also had some fantastic leg selling throughout and, as Mike identifies, the heel-ish tactics merging into desperation was a great touch. This had some messy grappling and brawling, signifying the heat and urgency due to the KOTR implications. I didn't think the run-in/'illusion' drama took away from the match much either. On some levels I actually enjoyed it. If we ever actually do have a WKO100 countdown for this project there's no way I'm letting Doink drop off my list.
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ScToTeE
Posted: Apr 1 2011, 03:21 PM


It's pronounced: sc-tot-ee


Group: Wrestling KO
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Joined: 9-October 10



Jerry Lawler vs. Tito Santana - WWF 03.21.1993 (YES)

I had a load of fun with this match. It doesn't matter what time I watch Lawler, heel or face, five minutes or sixty, I'm almost guaranteed to get sucked in. Case in point is this: I started watching it at 2:03AM. By all accounts this should've put me to sleep. It's eighteen minutes long but only the last five or so have any real 'action'. But this is Lawler in classic heel mode, as Phil says, and it's a blast to see. He riles up the crowd pre-match then talks trash to Santana, there's the complaints about non-existent tight-pulling and crowd behaviour that Lawler picked up from all his opponents in the previous decade, he smugly clasps on a hold thinking he's won the advantage only to be sent flying across the ring, stalls whilst pretending to be distracted by the audience again, eventually gets Santana into the corner only to miss the punch and hide between the ropes before Tito can retaliate, attempts to leave and whines on the microphone about "Burger King" chants, chucks more comical tantrums at the now louder "Burger King" chants, and once they FINALLY do something ... Lawler gets a big right in, follows it up with a piledriver and tries to get a "wetback" chant going over the mic. I can imagine my childhood self entering a fit of rage by this point salivating over the prospect of this bad guy getting his comeuppance.

All that classic heel role-playing eats up over ten minutes. There's bare minimal action and yet, clearly, Lawler is packing in a tonne of stuff to enjoy and react to as the crowd just gets more and more vocal. The "wetback" stuff was glorious. Lawler has a small stretch of offense but his arrogance leaves an opening for Santana to fight back, sending the King face-first into the post. We then have a quicker face surge until Jerry Lawler counters a sunset flip into a pin whilst clinging to the ropes. He steals the win, cheap-shots Tito afterwards and both brawl into the audience. It's just a joy to watch a master take a schtick like that and work it superbly. Over ten minutes of stalling and I was still greatly entertained. Bow to the King.
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mrghost
Posted: May 15 2013, 08:29 AM


Unregistered









Bret Hart Vs. Razor Ramon @ Royal Rumble

YES to Perfect/Flair a greatest farewell to Flair, a good ending of their feud and the best match from Raw in 93.
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