Tenryu vs Liger, Two Japanese stalwarts

Doing this poll because I have no idea what the sentiment around here would be.

I voted Liger, but I like Liger a lot more than most.

Tenryu, I like storytelling and selling.

Looking at the Smarkschoice vote made me think that almost nowhere would a 'best wrestler ever' vote have Tenryu very close to Liger. SC had Tenryu in the top 25, which isn't bad, but Liger was top 5 and had a third more points. There's a perfectly fine case for Liger thanks to Tenryu's time stuck in less-than-stellar SWS and WAR. However, the more I watch marginal Tenryu matches from periods like mid-80s AJ and early-00s AJ, the more I think Tenryu is really underrated.

Tenryu isn't much of an athlete and he wrestles mostly the same type of match, but he doesn't wrestle the SAME match and he's managed to mix things up very well with a limited moveset. Liger went through the motions a lot during the '90s and even more this decade, while I rarely get that sense from Tenryu, at least before he got really broken down.

Tag work isn't even CLOSE; Tenryu smokes Liger in tags by an order of magnitude. Watching late '90s NJ, there's a lot of reliably fun juniors tags but it's the Ohtani faction that makes things interesting. Liger in non-interpromotional tags this decade is almost never actively good. Young lion Yamada was fine in tags but hardly excelled the way Tenryu did from '85 on. Even if one gives Liger the edge in singles it's hard to give him as much of an edge as Tenryu has in tags. And for measuring wrestlers from Japan (at least outside shoot-style), tags are crucial.

Tenryu matches up really well with a lot of more highly regarded wrestlers. Unfortunately, while he's got a ton of depth for 'good' matches, he doesn't have much that rates as among the all-time best. It really takes a lot of Tenryu watching to 'get' the case for him as being on the level of someone like Liger.

I said in the Rey vs Liger thread that I think Liger is overated and I stick to it. I know it's a tired argument to use but in most of his matches (bar the Sano fued) I found myself only getting into them because of his opponents. I think Ohtani had better matches with Ultimo and Sammy, I prefer Samurai/Kanemoto over Liger/Samuari too. Not sure how Eddie/Liger holds up as I havent seen it in years but I'm sure Eddie had better matches with other guys and I recall thinking that was one of the best Liger matches. This decade he has done nothing for me outside the NOAH fued, I didn't even care as much for the Weekend Of Thunder stuff as others did.

Havent seen any of his 80's work, and I don't think I've even seen anything of Tenryu's 90's stuff, but I'd still lean to Tenryu for the stuff I have seen.

Dude with the Tenryu avatar needs to watch more Tenryu?! I suppose that means you have more to look forward to.

Liger vs Eddie was a big letdown. Eddie matched up better with so many lesser wrestlers. The BOSJ '96 final was exceeded by the Eddie vs Benoit semifinal. Their Feb '96 title match was also completely forgettable.

My Tenryu fandom stops short of his WAR work. I don't think I've seen anything from him in WAR outside that one tag where Jericho KO'd Onita. Did he do anything of significance there outside the Fujiwara match?

Also, is the '96 Eddie/Beniot match online anywhere?

-There's Tenryu vs Anjoh. I'll get a couple other WAR shows eventually. But Tenryu also had a lot of matches in NJ.

-I haven't seen it around since I yanked it from .us

Tenryu was amazing in WAR.

DEAN's WAR uploads: http://z11.invisionfree.com/wrestling_ko/i...?showtopic=1745

I don't see how the SWS/WAR stuff does anything but help Tenryu.

I mean more in terms of having MOTYCs than him looking bad. Tenryu wasn't getting to wrestle the likes of Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Ultimo, Sasuke, Ohtani etc etc. It's the SWS/WAR and their rosters that were problematic, not Tenryu. I got an SWS show from Lynch a few months back and Tenryu was a beacon of bright hot light in an otherwise dreary landscape. It's easier to make the case for Liger in the general IWC when he's having ***1/2 matches with great opponents while Tenryu was toiling to get good matches out of slugs. Liger is easier to pimp and easier to enjoy.

Bumping this because I got a bunch of '89 AJ TV and Tenryu busts all kinds off ass in tags that nobody talks about. Meanwhile I'm also watching stuff like Liger vs Kanemoto 1/4/99 with Liger being outworked and doing a totally moronic sub-Hogan comeback. The more marginal Tenryu and Liger matches I see, the more distance increases. I'm hoping that when Goodhelmet's All Japan 80s set finally comes out it will lead to Tenryu's stock going up the way it deserves to. I'm also hoping that Tenryu's stock will go up before then, because Goodhelmet has an insane amount of work to do before the AJ set is out.

I think very highly of Tenryu at the moment and would easily have him in my top 10. I'd rate him above all the All Japan guys except maybe Misawa.

I'm way biased in favor of Kings Road, so Tenryu in my top 10 really doesn't say much. It's more about him being competitive with the top guys and being well in front of the likes of Taue.

Kevin Wilson discusses Tenryu:

http://board.deathvalleydriver.com/index.p...ic=47320&st=480

There were a whole lot of terrible Tenryu powerbombs and other assorted botchings when he tried to do more than his body was capable of. Execution matters and I don't think it can be waved off. Liger, even as he got more broken down, hit more complicated things far better. I can understand why someone would prefer a random junior heavyweight who never sells a worked-over leg, to a dude who had to use his opponent as a pommel horse to do an enzuigiri. Let alone preferring Liger to said dude.

He'd have a point if Tenryu was a spot worker. Tenryu's a master storyteller, he's able to get a reaction by simply staring at his opponent. Tenryu not having Chris Daniels level execution means very little to me.

You wouldn't expect a Mutoh fan to get Tenryu.

I should mention Liger's palm strikes, more often than not, connect thin air. That's far worse than the occasional sloppy powerbomb.

Have you seen Tenryu vs Hashimoto 6/8/99? If not I'm going to up it soon.

Haven't seen that one.

I have watched a ton of both of these guys recently for the DVDVR project and have comps planned for both as well. Liger/Yamada was really good and was leagues above the other juniors of his time. Tenryu was a superstar in his All Japan days. I need to watch more post-1989 Tenryu before I give him the nod.

Now that I've seen the NJ '80s set, I think Yamada was my favorite junior from that era. Him wrestling Koshinaka or a green Masa Funaki is a much tougher task than Tenryu going in tags against Choshu/Yatsu or Jumbo/Yatsu during the same time period. But over the span of their careers, Tenryu more often had to make do with less. Having now seen the vast bulk of both of their title matches and 'important' bouts, Tenryu was much more consistent than Liger.

Tenryu in big tags in the mid to late '80s is never worse than "good". Liger would play DOWN to the level of someone like Takaiwa. I did enjoy Liger trying to break Marufuji in half last month but that doesn't excuse the vast wasteland that was his "CTU" run. Meanwhile, I watch more and more obscure tags and Tenryu continues to be the shit-stirrer while Liger either goes through the motions or shows a little fire when prodded by the more entertaining Ohtani. Tenryu/Araya vs Yamazaki/Iizuka from 11/9/96 is something that would get a huge response if it happened in recent years. Yet is no better than dozens of other Tenryu tags, and I'd put it up there with any number of Liger's most well-known bouts. Maybe part of that it my preference for heavyweight over juniors style... yet I don't see a case for Tenryu/Araya vs Yamazaki/Iizuka being anything less than "good" like I would for a LOT of late '90s Liger matches.

It's to the point where now I can see a case for Tenryu over Misawa. Tenryu was so on-point for such a long time.

Any Liger voters willing to reconsider yet...?

Considering that Tenryu did in fact have several great matches in SWS and WAR, and that the hidden gems keep rolling in, I'm more and more confident in the case for Tenryu.

I finally voted for Tenryu after seeing all of his AJPW stuff from '85 to '89 and starting to dig into the WAR footage. As much as I love Liger, he just wasn't as consistently entertaining.