Title: Type 81 Tribal Class
Description: Vosper Modernisation Proposal
Portsmouth Bill - February 21, 2010 04:17 PM (GMT)
I'm currently doing the Type 81 in real designs. I was intrigued by the Vosper proposal to modernise some of these ships as (at the time) they still had some useful life in front of them. And though this never materialised, I thought I'd try out a few ideas, beginning with this first effort. I would think that what I've included would be at the very limit of what the hulls could accept; and curiously I've ended with something close to a Type 21. And like that class the lack of VDS would be a problem. I doubt if the RN would have spent so much as shown here, so a more spartan version will be next, then an export version. I welcome any suggestions; one already may be why the Phallanx and Seacat? But in this scenario Phallanx was added later and Seacat was still worth keeping.
ALVAMA - February 21, 2010 04:33 PM (GMT)
Who! That looks really beautuful!! :)
erik_t - February 21, 2010 05:07 PM (GMT)
I'm confused - is this the actual Vosper proposal, or something else?
Portsmouth Bill - February 21, 2010 06:25 PM (GMT)
Thanks Alvama :)
|I'm confused - is this the actual Vosper proposal, or something else? |
No, that will follow; this is a developed version.
vossiej - February 21, 2010 06:41 PM (GMT)
Indeed looks really nice! These ships are fun to update as they are well suited platforms for newer weapons.
Portsmouth Bill - February 21, 2010 06:51 PM (GMT)
Sure, I must confess to the vicarious pleasure of 'kitbashing'; which I haven't enjoyed for a long time. Of course, the result would probably never have been built as the pressure would have been to build new ships - aka the Type 21, but I like this design, despite its single screw. Anyhow, I'm off to do the version that Vosper first proposed...watch this space ;)
ALVAMA - February 21, 2010 07:16 PM (GMT)
Bill, I really Love British frigates, last time (2 weeks ago IIRC) I went to the shop and bougth a comple of cards of various of frigate, Do you want I make a scans? I could send them to you! My father has seen the Zulu in 1974, she really likes to see your frigates!!
Novice - February 21, 2010 10:21 PM (GMT)
That nice P.B
I would Suggest keepint the two funnels, as the Tribals had two different propulsion systems (a small 15000 shp steam plant and 15000shp from gas turbines-in fact half the County class plant).
A more austere version would be more in line. Probably replacing the Mk.5 gun mounting foreward with Mk.8 (as done in the Saam class frigates of the Iranian navy), Keeping both Seacat and upgrading the GWS.21 with GWS.22 systems. Aft the Limbo mortar, the Mk.5 gun, and hangar removed, and replaced by a larger, fixed hangar for two Wasp/Lynx helicopter.
rifleman - February 21, 2010 10:36 PM (GMT)
very nice. I wonder how deep the modernisation would have gone the steam and trbine plant could have been replaced. Given the time period maybe LW sea wolf or a version of Blowpipe/Javelin might have been an option.
Portsmouth Bill - February 22, 2010 09:02 AM (GMT)
Thanks for the feedback shipmates :) I should have really done the austere version first (not to mention the real life), but I wanted some fun and hence this flight of fancy - not that it couldn't have been done, but there would not have been the funds nor the urgency, as the Type 21's served much the same role. If you have scans Alvama I'd be grateful, and glad your dad likes the Tribals; to me they were probbaly the last 'old fashioned' warships built fore the RN.
Next up is the austere version, but I may need some help on radars.
ALVAMA - February 22, 2010 09:16 AM (GMT)
I'll try to post them this afternoon :)
rifleman - February 22, 2010 09:42 AM (GMT)
am really looking forward to seeing the rest of your Type 81 range. The concept was good a lower spec frigate optimised for hot weather enviroments eg colonial patrol. I do wonder if the Royal Navy had had the funds and the foresight to replace them with a like vessel what it would have been like and wether it would have made life more comfortable for RN crews on Patrol in the carribean or of the somali coast or even up into the Northern Gulf. There is enough AU corvette drawings out there so may have a play.
Hood - February 22, 2010 10:25 AM (GMT)
I never particuarly liked the Tribal Class and although they were useful for second-line roles and peacetime patrolling etc the capability and costs worked out much the same as a Leander Class frigate (which had the twin Mk6 mount rather than two singles) with the latter having the edge with a proper hangar etc. Using the funds on an extra 4-6 Leanders might have been the best move.
In 1980/81 Vosper came up with an export idea to rebuild the Tribals with a twin Lynx hangar aft and switching to a single funnel. The rest of the armament was unchanged but the aft 4.5in was lost. An interesting idea but in the end the Tribals were sold more or less the same standard as they left RN service.
Still this is a very nice drawing, perhaps not what the RN would do given the age of the ships but it looks very nice. Can't wait to see the real Tribal!
Bombhead - February 22, 2010 09:22 PM (GMT)
I think the type 81s looked old even when they were new and just one screw is always a mistake :huh:
Portsmouth Bill - February 23, 2010 09:02 AM (GMT)
True, though the USN Perry's went down the same route, and in some ways were modern equivalents. The Type 81's were a result of the re-think that followed the Tuype 15's and the 'high end' asw frigates, aimed at the Soviet sub menace. The Brits realised that they were going to need a general purpose design for overseas postings - as in the Gulf, and The specialised frigates were just not suitable for that role. It wasn't until the Leanders that they had a design that was suitable, and even they were eventually converted into specialised asw platforms.
After Korea and the Malaysian emergency the RN was in need of the type of warships that used to be classified as Sloops, and the Type 81's were modern versions of that concept. Sure they looked old-fashioned with their old 4.5-in singles, but they also had a cosag power plant ahead of other ships, and also a helicopter; though I should imagine landing it was a bit of an art. All in all I think the 'Tribals' gave good service in their intended roles.
gollevainen - February 23, 2010 09:29 AM (GMT)
Wasen't Tribals orginally to have been called as Sloops? But then by some political twist reclassed as frigates.
IMO retaining the sloop tittle, they would have been rather badass sloops and generally propaply got more aknowledgement and praises.
I also would like to see the orginal suggestion as I recall Tribals being source of some of my early (pre-Shipbucket, pre-internet) AU ideas...
Novice - February 23, 2010 02:32 PM (GMT)
Re former remarks about the Tribals, I'd like to add the following:
1 The Tribals were indeed designed as Sloops in general and especially for the Persian Gulf, to replace the 9 Loch class frigates formerly used.
2 The Tribals were innovatives in several ways, as they had the first COSAG plant, in any sizeble warship, they had a landing pad & hangar for a small helicopter, and they also were the first frigate sized ships to carry the Type 965 radar.
The work done on the Tribals and the previous Type 12 frigates was joined together in the Leanders.
P.B I hope to see the Real Life Type 81 frigate (sloop) soon.
Portsmouth Bill - February 23, 2010 03:50 PM (GMT)
No worries, I'll fast track the real-life and try and get it posted tonight or tomorrow :)
Portsmouth Bill - February 26, 2010 06:45 PM (GMT)
This is the closest I've got to the Vosper proposal for upgrading the Type 81's. Vosper offered a hangar for two Lynx, a streamlined funnel for both uptakes, and some upgrading of sensors. Sonar was Graseby G1777k. Surface search was Decca TM1226. The Marconi 'Saphire' ST802 was to be offered, and I'm showing two sets fore and aft, these controlling Seacat and 4.5-in and any other add-ons.
That leaves another Marconi radar - S820, and here I need some help, because I've no idea what it looks like and where it would be situated. I've removed the Type 965 from the masthead, but this could be returned; and the Indonesian ships retained the same.
As far as a customer, Vosper had hopes of Venezuela, but I don't grok that; I would suggest two other potential users: Egypt or Indonesia, with the latter being a better bet. And before I get objections to the two Lynx (or the funnel), I have seen a drawing in an old Janes that show both. The beam of the Tribal's was 42.5, the same as the Italian Maestrale's, compared to: Leander (broad beam) 43.00, and Amazon 41.7; so, If (as I show) the hangar is extended to the deck edge it is do-able. And unlike my earlier flight of fancy, this is definately a spartan version, with as much of the original left in place.
Portsmouth Bill - February 26, 2010 06:49 PM (GMT)
I should add why Egypt. They were one of the very few customers for the Saphire system, on both the Ramadan and October class FAC's, so they would have been able to integrate the same on another platform.
ALVAMA - February 26, 2010 09:05 PM (GMT)
That one is pretty too! :) :) Damn.. That prop looks large for such vessel. Oeh remember The SeaCat Missile :P
Novice - February 27, 2010 09:50 AM (GMT)
As I recall the Egyptian Ramadan class FAC's had the Marconi s820 radar. It's a simple draw as it is a 3m radome and like the Ramadan class it can be placed atop the masthead.
Portsmouth Bill - February 27, 2010 06:24 PM (GMT)
I've taken Novice's advice and replicated the same masthead position for the S820. I had thought it might be somehow different on the Vosper project, but it does solve the problem. The updated version also has a different prop, to apease some concern over the original one. I'm not sure what the fuss was about as the drawings in Friedman's book show an even larger one, and if you compare mine with the the latest Broadsword you'll see the latter is a bit larger (with twin shafts!). The version below is shown as an Indonesian version; and I'll do an Egyptian one next.
erik_t - February 27, 2010 07:48 PM (GMT)
The bronze-y color is an artifact of early GIF compression and is considered unacceptable by current style guidelines. The previous shade of yellow is the proper color (much though I personally prefer the bronze). As I said in the other T81 thread, an even bigger screw is quite reasonable here.
gollevainen - February 27, 2010 08:02 PM (GMT)
You also have the obsolete 324mm TTs
Generally nice drawing but that Vosper's charectaristic big funnel just stick out like a ballerina among the olympic games ice-hockey final ;)
ALVAMA - February 27, 2010 08:26 PM (GMT)
erik_t - February 27, 2010 08:51 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (gollevainen @ Feb 27 2010, 08:02 PM)|
| You also have the obsolete 324mm TTs |
I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I was never entirely sure whether that torpedo tube drawing was old, or depicting a different launcher. It's officially an obsolete set of pixels, then?
Colosseum - February 27, 2010 11:47 PM (GMT)
Yes. The proper one is floating around somewhere. You'll find it on some of my USN vessels.
erik_t - February 27, 2010 11:56 PM (GMT)
Oh, I've got it on my own personal sheets too, and have been using it exclusively for some time. I just wasn't sure what the deal was on the old version; it was so radically larger that I assumed this was intentional.
Colosseum - February 28, 2010 01:45 AM (GMT)
I don't know why it was so off. It just was, and one day I just replaced it with a more accurate one and everyone was like, "Wow, I never noticed how bad the old one was!" Lol.
Novice - February 28, 2010 10:32 AM (GMT)
One question which bugs me is this: Where are the SeaCat directors?
The original Tribal had 3 FCS: one the MRS-3 on top of the bridge, for the guns, and two GWS 21 systems for SeaCat, sided near the aft funnel.
Portsmouth Bill - February 28, 2010 11:39 AM (GMT)
|One question which bugs me is this: Where are the SeaCat directors?|
No need as the Saphire system controls the Seacat; in fact other than the single 4.5-in up front it hasn't much else to do; though I would expect that adding a modern gun mount 76mm Oto or 57mm Bofors would be the next step; then junking Seacat for something else like Bofors Trinity or Oto 40mm twins - maybe adding a very light sam system on the hangar roof? Saphire seems to have been a capable system in this scenario, and as we know, on the Egyptian Ramadan and October's it was used with Ottomat; but I would think trying to add the same here might be a step too far. Anyhow, here is more on the Saphire:http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/vie...20-%201185.html
Re the screw and TT's, thanks for the feedback guys, and I'll change as I go along. I think erik_t will spot some cribbing from one of his drawings that I'm hoping he'll post soon ;)
Portsmouth Bill - March 1, 2010 03:35 PM (GMT)
|Generally nice drawing but that Vosper's charectaristic big funnel just stick out like a ballerina among the olympic games ice-hockey final |
Aw, just jealous because the Canucks got gold :P Still, I've read that the Finn's captain is some motivator - coming back to get Bronze.
Anyway, back to unreality; rather than do the same thing in diferent service, I've done a more ambitious version that Egypt purchases to complement its use of the Saphire system already in service on its FAC's. Two, or even three would offer counter-threat to the Israeli forces - especially if they also purchase Sea Skua. Failing Egypt, Vosper could have sold to Iran while the Shah was our best friend, or, Iraq, after, when Saddam was our best friend because he was attacking Iran. Ah, the happy world of International arms selling B)
rifleman - March 2, 2010 05:46 PM (GMT)
Did think one with Dutch or European Electronics. Are you going to do a surface launched Sea Skua system?
Portsmouth Bill - March 3, 2010 09:00 AM (GMT)
No, I thought to stick with what was commercialy available, and as far as I know the surface launch Sea Skua was never developed to use by any customer. I might do another update on the Indonesian one, so that could allow Dutch radar and fire control.
gollevainen - March 3, 2010 09:32 AM (GMT)
|Aw, just jealous because the Canucks got gold Still, I've read that the Finn's captain is some motivator - coming back to get Bronze.|
Well when was the last time UK won in Ice Hockey ;)
But you are correct, its been rumored that Saku Koivu held a speech to the team before the 3rd round in the bronze game that alledgedly left all Hollywood sports movies sentimentaly miles behind ;)
But of the smokestacks comes and Idea...have you considered totally remove the Gas/steam turbine combo and go for an all-diesel arragment? Migth be more suitable for a "sloop" than more high end propulsion?
rifleman - March 3, 2010 03:02 PM (GMT)
thought the Kuwaiti's got SSM Sea Skua?
Portsmouth Bill - March 3, 2010 03:43 PM (GMT)
Aparently, Canada is mildy pleased to have beaten the USA :lol: I once asked a Canuck friend what was the diference between Ice Hockey and just 'Hockey' He replied with (what for a Canadian) was passion - "There is only Hockey - and we play it".
Re diesel conversion, sounds a a good idea but not sure how far I can go before it would be easier (and of course cheaper) to build a new hull. Re Sea Skua, I'd be interested to see any info? That apart, I'd stick with a bigger missile with longer range, and I'm factoring in Sea-Skua for the Lynx. I'm presently just doing fun stuff because off sick for the past week - no juice to get back onto my other projects ;)
Hood - March 3, 2010 04:00 PM (GMT)
I'm not sure re-engining the ship is going to be practical or cost effective. Of course newer Paxman-Valentia diesels and newer Spey gas turbines at this time would make much better engines. Not sure these could be fitted and once again I feel new-builds make more sense than rebuilding a 1960s ship.
The Egyptian ship seems fair, the electronics are spot-on, nice blend of missiles and a decent gun to replace the obsolete 4.5in.
ALVAMA - March 3, 2010 06:10 PM (GMT)