Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists?

I thought I'd start a topic. Eventually, I'll bring in some more information to pin up in this forum. In the meanwhile, I'd rather just start a topic.

Here's a question: Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists?

I've found that even LaVeyan Satanists don't agree with each other on this matter.

I've always liked to back up my answers with quotes from the Satanic Bible -- because I'm geeky like that.

I should mention, though, that just because I'm quoting material from the book, that doesn't mean that I believe that's the only possible answer. The Satanic Bible is pretty straight forward, but there are some grey areas. Though, I would say, that if we want to define what LaVeyan Satanism is and is not, then using the book to back up an argument is the way to go.

Are "LaVeyan" Satanists atheists? Obviously, without referring to the book, the answer is "yes and no". Some are, some aren't. Anyone would know that from chatting with those who call themselves "LaVeyan Satanists".

Though, a person could call themselves a loaf of bread -but that doesn't mean they're correct.

Moving on: Before answering this question, it'd be a good idea to define some terms.

Atheism, being defined as: the doctrine or belief that there is no God
God, being defined as: a supreme being, powerful force

Anton LaVey (founder of LaVeyan Satanism (sometimes known as Modern Satanism) states, "it is a popular conception that the Satanist does not believe in God. The concept of 'god' as interpreted by man, has been so varied throughout the ages, that the Satanist simply accepts the definition which suits him best" (Satanic Bible, pg 40).

With that in mind, one could argue that a Satanist may define "God" as something other than a "supreme being" or a "powerful force". A Satanist might say, "I don't believe in a supreme being or a powerful force" but I believe in myself -and that makes me god". -- but does that make him an atheist? Some people think so.

I've never come across a Satanist who didn't consider himself to be "god" (by the way, that would make him the "supreme being" of his life.) It is my argument that since he believes in a god (of sorts), he cannot call himself an atheist.

I suppose a Satanist could argue that "god" means "no god" -hence making them an atheist. That's a bit of a stretch, I think.

Though, if you are of the opinion that "god" as defined by atheists means ONLY the"creator and ruler of the universe, etc etc", then I can understand how one would argue that a Satanist is an atheist. Though, as far as I know, atheism doesn't hold to only one concept of god.

Anton LaVey continues saying, "to the Satanist, 'god' -by whatever name he is called, or by no name at all - is seen as the balancing factor in nature, and not as being concerned with suffering. This powerful force which permeates and balances the universe is far too impersonal to care about the happiness or misery of flesh-and-blood creatures on this ball of dirt upon which we live"(Satanic Bible, pg 40).

According to the Satanic Bible, "god" can be summed up as:

- balancing factor in nature
- powerful force
- whichever definition suits you best (most Satanists call themselves 'god')

Satanists believe in "god" therefore they cannot be "atheists".

I'm willing to bet that the majority of Satanists who DO consider themselves to be atheists are under the impression that the term "god" only has one definition.

My opinion? They've not paid close enough attention to the Satanic Bible (or the dictionary) and do not truly understand their religion.

They don't have to 'go by the book', of course -- in which case, I believe they should not call themselves "LaVeyan Satanists" -but, perhaps, some other variety.

I have a question! With all due respect of course, what is the difference between a theistic and a non-theistic Satanist? I've heard that term being thrown around, and I've always wondered what the difference is. I do really need to read the Satanic Bible, however, every time I go to get one it's never "in" at the bookstore... though I have always wanted to get a copy, or there are other titles by Lavey, but never that one, which is what I want to read first.

Anyhoo Good to see you back!!

--HeathenMomma

I'm willing to bet that a theistic satanist is what I call a "traditional satanist" or a "devil worshipper". I need to be careful about throwing those terms around, though. Those who do believe that Satan is real don't always call themselves 'devil worshippers'. I know only about half of what I could know in regards to this variety of Satanism. It's not my path -and honestly, all that I know, is that there are many sects of theistic satanism & that they all believe that Satan (quite literally, or at least, to some extent) is a real being. Generally, they worship this being.

I have a couple of books written by "traditional Satanists". I'll read them over and let you know what I find out....it'll be interesting comparing both theistic and non-theistic in more detail.

FYI, I use the word "traditional" as opposed to LaVeyan which is the "modern" variety. People worshipped the devil before Anton LaVey was born. People still do -- these people are "traditional satanists".

Offhand - The Church of Satan gets VERY cranky (I know from personal experience *hides*) when you acknowledge that there is more than one kind of Satanist. From their perspective, Satanism only has one definition -their definition. Everyone else is a 'pseudo-Satanist' (wanna be, fake, poser, etc etc).

So, non-theistic satanism. This is what I know backwards and forwards, inside and out. Modern/LaVeyan/Non-theistic Satanists do not believe that Satan is a literal being. Satan is an archetypal metaphor for the values, ideas and beliefs which define the Satanist.

The non-theistic satanist does not believe in the Satan of Christianity - as LaVey put it, the "anthropomorhpic being with cloven hoofs, a barbed tail, and horns." He goes on to say, Satan merely represents [keyword being *represents*] a force of nature-the powers of darkness which have been named just that because no religion has taken these forces out of the darkness . . . Satan, as a god, demi-god, personal saviour, or whatever you wish to call him, was invented by the formulators of every religion on the face of the earth...".

A non-theistic Satanist may acknowledge that there is power -but that's all it is -raw power. If you want this power to take form, take it in to yourself, and then you'll have something of substance to worship.

Hmm. Another way to put this -- Is Santa Claus real? (No, but the power behind his name is very real. )

Does a non-theistic Satanist believe Satan is real? (No, but the power behind his name is very real.)

Satan is not a literal being, no more than Santa Claus.

At this point, you might argue, well then, if the power is real, and you call it Satan, then you should admit that Satan is real.

That's when we get back to definitions. A non-theistic satanist does not believe that there's a literal being (thinking, living, being) named Satan, with motives, thoughts, ideas, and passions of his own. These qualities belong to humanity.

A non-theistic satanist may acknowledge a "force of darkness" (not all do - but Anton LaVey DID), but they sure as hell won't worship it as a divine being -worthier than one's self. (Though, in ritual, Satan -and other names- are called upon/hailed. Though, it's not an act of devil worship.

Boy. I could go on and on. I think I'll stop here. *wipes brow*

I'm up WAY late. Hope all that was clear!

Hey ya

Yeah.. that does make quite a bit of sense. I'm kind of tired so I might do a "real" reply later when I can think more clearly lol

So when you call upon Satan in ritual, are you technically calling upon the things that Satan stands for (the name, not the being, obviously.. ) that reside within yourself? I ask only because I think I understand that most Satanists view themselves as a God? (If I am wrong on that please correct me ) I hope that makes sense since I'm a bit worn out from a crazy day at work.


BTW.. I just uh.. came across a PDF of the Satanic Bible.. ok.. you got me.. I torrented it..

A term that will pop up all the time in regards to Satanic ritual is "psychodrama". That's how Anton LaVey explained ritual - that it's all for show, a way to build up emotion, or to psych you out, so that your desire -or whatever the purpose of the ritual is- can be attained.

The candles, the bell, the altar, the hailing of Satan, Leviathan, Lucifer and Belial -or whichever names are most appropriate create the drama. Without the drama, the idea is that you wouldn't have strong enough emotion to focus your will on what you want.

To answer your question, yes, when Satan is called upon, a Satanist knows he's not a literal being -that Satan represents ideals (or if you want to get specific, the Nine Satanic Statements explain exactly what Satan represents). Though, the reason to call upon any name at all, during ritual, is a bit more complex....

The purpose of calling upon Satan is to create that psychodrama. He doesn't literally appear in any way, shape or form. Anything that does appear comes from the caller - the creator of the myth - the Satanist. It's an "it's all in your mind" type of thing; except that real results can come from "what's only in your mind."

That's the answer you'll find in the Satanic Rituals, by Anton LaVey, starting on page 31, where he writes about psychodramas.

How matters stand, outside of the book, are a bit different. Many LaVeyan Satanists don't utilize ritual anymore -or never at all. Peter Gilmore -the current High Priest of the Church of Satan has said that they've outgrown the need for ritual, almost as if it were beneath them. I'm quoting from memory, so it's a bit unfair to say all this without quoting from a source; and I can't find a source at the moment. Though, that's what I remember hearing/reading....

Anyways, I do know that many LaVeyan Satanists do not believe that magic (it's spelled without a "k" in this religion) actually works. They believe that ritual only exists for those with a psychological need to express their emotions in a manner that only a ritual could provide.

Others (myself included) disagree. We acknowledge that real results can can from exercising your will through ritual. It's a tool - one that works.

My guess is that maybe 1/3 or maybe 1/2 of LaVeyan Satanists actually utilize ritual.

Oh, and yes, I've never met a LaVeyan Satanist who didn't consider themselves to be god -the supreme being of their life.

Wait...Santa isn't real??



You are a bad, BAD lady!





Well no, not really
I enjoyed your explanation of Laveyan Satanism

Yep, Santa isn't real! Muhah!

wow that was a good read
now i am becoming interested in learning more on this subject

i gotta find an online store that sells this Bible you speak of


and on the part about Santa


Shhhhhhhh shush
there may be people who still believe in him

i already had my belief torn from me by a few non believers when i was little
which i must say crushed me deep down inside

dont do it to others so shhhhhh lol

Any mainstream book store (online and offline) will have the Satanic Bible. Try amazon, borders, barnes & nobles, etc...