EPISODE 86: Dickens' Musicals

[nickhutson]

NICK AND THOS take you on a journey exploring just a few musicals based on the novels of Charles Dickens - and discuss everything from Muppets to Menken and Druid to Bricusse.

[balaclava27]

It was cool to learn the original ideas for the ghosts in muppets christmas carol...that would have turned out interesting if gonzo was the ghost of xmas future!

Good show, really enjoyed it! Although, PLEASE talk more about Oliver! in another episode.

[nickhutson]

What would you like us to say about Oliver? I think the reason we didn't talk about it - as it's so famous; everyone knows the songs and story. But - do let us know what you'd like to know about Oliver.

[balaclava27]

you know, now that i think of it, idk...i mean, i think you guys have already talked about how he wrote it to fund twang... and there's not much else to it...
lol. i just love it, i guess

[Thos]

Actually, Bart wrote Oliver! well before he developed Twang!! (the two exclamation marks are in the title), but he sold the rights on the former to fund the latter.

Episode 112 deals specifically with Oliver! which we hope you will have enjoyed. In addition, there is a review of a recent production that I wrote which you can see on the features page of the website should you be interested. Despite both of those, there is plenty of meat on the bone in relation to the show, not least the new London production, so I am sure we will be revisiting him soon.

And here's a question which I'd be interested in people's views on: is Fagin a villain or a sympathetic character? Different versions depict him in different ways. What do you think?

Thos

[nickhutson]

Yes - do read the review.

As you know from the episode I can't wait to see the new Oliver playing here in London.

*(WARNING: RANDOM THOUGH PROCESS AHEAD)*

Great question from Thos. I think in regard to the musical Fagin could be seen as a sympathetic character. It's really, in a postmodern way, up to the audience - and not something set out by Bart. For example, the scene in the film (and I can't remember if it's in the stage show) when Fagin noticed Oliver has noticed Fagin going through some of Fagin's treasures, and Fagin nearly attacks Oliver with a long fork thing (Don't know the term!) we see him angry and then gentle with Oliver.

Again, the polarity works with Fagin's role with his gang. Whilst he's a father to these homeless children (provides a bed and food), he still makes them steal for him and makes use of their vulnerability. One could also see a link here with Oliver at the workhouse; a place where children are given a roof over their heads, food and work to do. However, Fagin provides a much more fun and child friendly atmosphere for the children he makes work.

Certainly Reviewing The Situation is Fagin's song where we're certainly meant to feel sympathy for him. He provides an internal monologue where he makes us feel disgusted at all the upper class things he could be doing and therefore we feel great elation when he decides to "think it out again". However, through his life, it's always been his companions and treasures that keeps him happy - and when he loses them, he decides to change at the very end. This tells us that he at least is not entirely selfish!

[Sandra]

The portrayal of Fagin differs depending on what you're watching. I read the book many years ago, but I don't remember much of it. I've recently seen the musical version from 1968 and the film from 2005.

In the film musical Oliver!, Fagin is portrayed as a sympathetic character, whilst Bill is considered the story's villain. Fagin is selfish, he makes the children steal for him, but he does provide lodgings for them and he really seem to care for them. He also stands for most of the comedy in the show which I think adds to the audience considering him a sympathetic character.

In the film version Oliver Twist however there are no big musical numbers, and Fagin does feel a bit more creepy. I'm sure that on some level he does care for the boys, but he's also dependant on them.

The endings are completely different as well. In Oliver! the movie ends with Fagin and Dodger dancing their way into the sunset with plans on continuing their lives as thieves. In Oliver Twist the story ends with Oliver saying his last good bye to a wretched Fagin, who at that point is lonely, he's lost his boys, his companions, he's lost his treasures and will soon lose his life as he's soon meet the gallows.


Considering these both very different version I've seen I actually do think of Fagin a sympathetic character, but I can't really say why.

[edtheakston]

Hi!

This is my first time on these here forums and listeners youll be hearing more from me on the podcast in coming weeks!

I was in fact discussing this very topic with Thos a few weeks ago and I think we share rather different ideas about Fagin. I really think that he is a villain. I admit that I haven't read the book as yet but I have seen many different versions of the musical Oliver! and the films of Oliver Twist, as well as a straight play version of it. I think that when Dickens was writing he used Fagin's Judaism as a shorthand to portray his character using the stereotypes of the day. The Victorian stereotype was of money grabbing, peadophilic, dirty people. Of course, these stereotypes (as most usually are) are false and I hope I cause no offense, but I think that Dickens made him a Jew to quickly get across to his readers an idea about his characteristics. I don't think this hits home so much these days, as stereotypes have in many cases been dismissed. But i feel that it was an important point at the time of writing.

I also think that Fagin was a peadophile - he had a large group of boys in his 'care' and i think he had a major hold over them. If you want to go all psychological you could say that as we know thanks to modern science some people who are abused can sometimes feel a fondness for their abusers and in some cases even fall in love with them! This is often said to be because they have a common secret and this enables a 'close' relationship. I think this may be the case with Fagin and the boys.

He obviously exploits the boys for his own ends. They do not get anything in return, it seems, other than a roof and some mouldy sausages ("These sausages are mouldy!" Lionel Bart's Oliver!)! This would seem to suggest that actually there is something else in the bargain than the explicit.

In Lionel Bart's musical version (more so in the stage version than film), Fagin repeatedly says 'my dear'. This shows a certain creepy, letching nature to his character. He does struggle with what he is in the song reviewing the situation, but he resolves to stay a criminal and though it does make the audience feel repulsed at the upper classes behaviours (a common theme for authors in Dickens time - I'm thinking of Jekyll and Hyde, another with musical adaptations to it's credit) it does show that even though Fagin's internal monologue is complex, he has no real desire to change as he finds fault in every other option!

Bill Sykes is a key character in understanding Fagin, as he thieves for Fagin, getting a few pennies in return. Why does he do this, I hear you ask?? Well, perhaps that he was one of Fagin's boys and has a degree of fondness for Fagin due to their history (as mentioned above!). In the Victorian era there would have been plenty of people looking for an easy way of getting stolen goods, and Bill could have gone elsewhere, but he went to Fagin.

I think Fagin does have shades of light and dark - for example in the stage version during the reprise of Fine Life he sings 'No violence' repeatedly, showing that he feels something for others, in particular Nancy whom was also part of Fagin's gang when she was 'half his [Oliver's] age'.

Fagin is not as 'black' as perhaps I have painted him, but i think he is the real villain, determining Nancy and Bill's lives from when they were young, and continuing to do so to all of his gang. He has control/responsibility for the way the boys lives go, and he leaves them wanting to be like Bill Sykes. He almost runs a factory for thieves and robbers, training them from an impressionable young age.

I am currently in another amateur production of Oliver! in Harpenden (23rd - 28th March 2009, www.harpenden-operatic.co.uk) and the actor playing Fagin seems to agree with me, and I think to some extent Rowan Atkinson does as well, though he obviously plays up the comic side because of his performing background.

Hope to have contributed! Some very interesting views here though!

Ed Theakston