Stuck again

So I'm finding myself stuck again, with dd1 (turning 11 Shavuos time) and Chumash, or rather all textual learning that involves Hebrew. This morning she even refused to do her grammar book, which usually is not an issue. And it wasn't even hard. But she claimed that she didn't remember anything from those grammar books anyway and there was no point doing them. When I said that they would help her with Chumash, she said that she has absolutely no interest in learning Chumash and doesn't see how it would ever be useful. And while we were having this conversation, she was crying and refused to look at me. (Is that an attachment thing?)

I don't know how many times in the past we've had this conversation. I've tried so many things to get her interested in Chumash. I've tried skipping the Hebrew and just doing it outside, throwing in lots of Midrashim, getting to the deeper meaning of midrashim, etc. I tried all kinds of ways to help her with Hebrew, so she wouldn't find it so intimidating. She did all three levels of Rosetta Stone. But I don't know how much of it she remembers.

Learning is so much part of our lives that I don't understand why I even have to come up with reasons for why learn Chumash. She sees me learning whenever I have a chance. She sees dh learning constantly and telling us what he learned. Our Shabbos table discussions are all about the parsha. And none of it is forced. It's a natural part of life in our home. So what am I doing wrong?

It's true that I don't have any experience with kids her age learning Chumash. I started when I was a few years older, and I was very intetersted and motivated. I don't know how to interest a child who is not naturally interested.

She doesn't want a tutor. She does want a class, with other girls, but my attempts to put one together did not work out. Any advice? Thanks!

That's pretty much exactly what defensive detachment looks like.

If I were you, I would work on attachment first, and then in a quiet moment when the two of you are clearly engaged with each other, I would bring it up very gently, as a statement that you think is true. "I see you are having a hard time with Humash", or some such. And just let it sit. Tell her that you see that she is trying-- elicit her best intentions. And see where that very gentleness takes you.

What is defensive detachment?

We have many moments throughout the days when we're engaged with each other. I think... Just now we were reading about the parsha together, with the rest of the siblings (in English), and she was participating in the discussion and asking good questions.

But I can't honestly tell her that she's trying. She isn't. She's trying to get out of it, as much as she can (such as getting me totally distracted while we're learning Chumash by starting a conversation on a completely different topic; unfortunately, I get distracted too easily).

And I assume leaving Chumash to the side for a while is out of the question?

Tried that already. Several times.

Until she asks to go back to it?

She never asks. So we wait a month, or two, or three, but longer?

I feel that this is one of those life skills that I have an obligation to teach her, or she won't be prepared for life, in this day and age.

I'd like to see what the others have to say. Honestly, my instinct would be to let it go and when she's interested again at her own initiative, let her dive completely in. There's always the possibility she *won't* be interested but it seems like forcing it is ensuring that very possibility. Maybe she just needs to feel like she really has the choice. I know that when I feel forced or feel unspoken outside expectations, it makes me want to run the other direction - no matter how compelling the task/subject. If it doesn't come from me, I can't do it in a meaningful way.

im with elisheva. look, i became religious as an adult...when i was ready. am learning it all now. would have been pointless to do this b4 i was ready. nak.

Defensive detachment is when the natural desire for attachment has been reversed, and rather than pursue closeness with someone, a person will instead become emotionally defended in their interactions with that person. In this case, they resist attachment to the degree they would have previously pursued it.

Basically you work on it by working on attachment through collecting, etc.

I also think chumash is important, but the question is how can you get a child to learn something they don't want to. The answer is, you can't. You can either find a way to make it appealing to her, force her to 'learn' it anyway (and there will be little absorption of the materials), or let it go.

Your relationship with her, and her relationship to Torah - imo - is more important to her short and long term well-being than how well she translates a text.

So why is this defensive detachment happening? I think we have a pretty close relationship, and it doesn't seem to come up in other contexts. What causes defensive detachment?

I'm not speaking to the issue of defensive detachment specifically, Zeph brought that up and she can respond along those lines if she wants.

She doesn't enjoy what she's doing. You want her to do this. So she's resistant to connecting with you when it comes to the topic of chumash. My oldest dd was like this with chumash and I totally dropped it because I felt it wasn't worth damaging our relationship over.

Your comment that she won't be prepared for life without chumash skills was very interesting to me. Can you explain why you think that and what she'll be missing?

Don't think that you can fully prepare your child for every aspect of life. Not possible. All you can do is give them the emotional tools and trust that they'll have the desire to fill in the inevitable holes themselves later on if it's important to them.

Sorry I've been so long in responding, I've been swamped.

There are reasons for defensive detachment (separation, attachment frustration-- when the kid is seeking to attach, and for whatever reason they don't succeed or feel that they've succeeded), but the fact is that it's just part of the human condition. You aren't perfect, your dd isn't perfect, you'll miss cues, you won't always be emotionally available, or sometimes expectations just won't line up with reality. You've been in defensive detachment without realizing it. You know how sometimes you get upset or overwhelmed? Maybe you want to lock yourself in your room, or go out for a walk or suddenly run an errand without anyone coming with you or else? That's defensive detachment. You aren't really in a thinking state, you really just are overcome by your emotions, even if you don't notice it. You don't want a kid stuck in that state, that's bad, but it's also not what you are describing so let's not even worry about that here.

So when a kid is in defensive detachment, the only thing you can do is... well, try to do no harm.

You can't discipline. You can't explain. You cannot communicate. You can just tell them that you can handle this, that you love them regardless of what state they are in, and then leave it. Give them some space if they need it... oh, heck, Neufeld has this whole thing on handling defensive detachment.

Mostly what you want to do is to make it clear, in a loving tone of voice, that there is nothing the child can do to sever the relationship. That's what it boils down to. He has suggestions, but that's the bottom line.

Honestly, I think that she is resisting Humash because it's just so very important to you. My guess is that she is trying to find her own voice right now, and she all she can hear are the booming expectations of the important adults in her life.

There are so many voices in her life telling her what's important. There are a lot of demands (even if you don't think so, try looking at it from her point of view. Think of her father's attitude, and the grandparents who want you to send her back to school because she's almost 11 and hasn't started calculus. It's a lot. It might be too much).

I suspect that mostly, she is ready to exert independence over her learning. I don't know for sure that's that's it, and I doubt she's ready to make all her educational decisions for everything, but there does come a point where you need to step back to an advisory position. If you don't, she'll just have to push away, and she'll be so into her independence that she won't be able to hear your voice.

So how to handle the Humash thing? I would suggest that you somehow put her in charge of creating that class that she wants. See what happens.

Oh, and be prepared to be surprised.