Cleaning up toys/other messes, how do you get your kids to do it

My 5 year old is a pro at making excuses to avoid work. I don't ask a lot of him but I've started getting the kids to pick up their own toys (within reason) in the living room. Yesterday, a bunch of Duplo blocks got spilled out. After our friend went home, I announced that we were going to tidy the living room so it was nice when Tatti came home from work. I picked up all the stuff except the Duplo because I had told them that was for them to do (they had to put the pieces in a plastic tub). Ds5 fought and fought and fought it. I suggested timing their work - like a game. Nope. I sat and kept repeating "we're picking up the blocks now." No TV. No other toys. They couldn't leave the living room until it was done. After 40 min of protest they FINALLY cleaned up the *^&%* blocks. I kept my cool but unfortunately I just bottled up the anger I was feeling and it came spewing out this morning when they made a relatively minor mess in the yard.

Here's what I want: no excuses. Just do the job. I don't ask them to do complicated jobs or more than they can handle. Ultimately, I want them to value contributing to the family. When I say to ds5 "It's time to collect the eggs and give the hens their scratch (or more often I say, in 10 min this needs to happen), even though he likes the work and tantrums when I just do it myself, he'll make excuses and I'll spend 15 min telling him to get to it. He wants to do it on his own terms but I have yet to uncover a foolproof way to make him

Right now, I'm trying to get him to spend 5 min cleaning up a mess he made in the yard yesterday. The 5 min job has taken 30 min so far because he keeps coming to make excuses.

Honestly, I want to pull my hair out. I don't want to punish because ds5 doesn't connect consequences to actions unless they are immediate. I did tell him he can't collect the eggs until this job is done and that I will collect the eggs myself if he doesn't finish before 5 min to licht.

Ugh, I have been there.

For a long time, ds (now 6.5) was very difficult to get to clean up any mess, especially his room. The only way it would get done was to sit in his room with him and direct every movement, no distractions.

We've basically had 2 approaches to teaching him how to clean up (DH's and mine)

Method 1: Divide the room into a grid, and clean one section of the floor at a time

Method 2: Pick up all toys of a similar type. First all the blocks, then all magna tiles, then all clothes, etc.

Recently, Ds said to me "I am not a good cleaner" and it really got me. Later that week,I challenged him to clean his room to prepare for a guest that was coming, and he really was engaged and excited. I was cleaning the LR/DR area at the same time (his bedroom is right off the DR) and we made a "contest" to see who can get their area cleaned up soonest. I coached him while he did it (Let's first focus on picking up all clothes, then blocks, etc) but he really did it all on his own, without my constant hovering. It was a real breakthrough. Afterwards, DH and I praised him for all his hard work and said "Wow, you can really clean thoroughly!" - we'd like him to see for himself that he is a good cleaner when he wants to be.

If you expect a 5 yo to be able to do unpleasant work, on his own, on demand, and stick with it, you should also expect to be frustrated and disappointed.

Most adults can't do that, not without a huge amount of motivation (usually because there's no choice). I know I can't.

5 minutes is a long time also, for a little kid. Their sense of time is not yet developed, and saying "5 minutes" to them is completely meaningless. If there's an hourglass, that he can track, then it's doable, possibly. Otherwise, they hear it as we would hear "for the foreseeable future".

If you need household help, it's not going to come from this direction. If you're looking to teach him how to take care of his possessions, how to share in household chores, etc, then over time, over YEARS, it might sink in. Not today, not tomorrow. Possibly not until he himself is an adult and has no other choice.

The only way to make it a positive learning experience, and not a battle, is for you to do it together, as a team. Yes, as Chavi points out, part of that can be, "I'm picking up the blocks, and you're picking up the books". It can also be, "We are picking up the books, please give me that blue book over there." The more specific you are, the more likely it is that he can do it. When you see that he's tired, allow him to ask you to stop. There's also a matter of Kibbud Av VaEm, so it's a good idea to teach him to say out loud, "Mommy, may I stop helping you now, I am tired".

And btw, the same applies to teenagers. Especially, but not exclusively, teenage boys. For whom it is not sufficient to say, "please clear the table", one has to say, "please take those books of the table, and COME BACK", and then, "please take the drinks off the table and COME BACK", etc.

Thank you. I oddly had an instinct that I was asking the impossible but I have friends who SWEAR their kids pick up after themselves. These same friends tell me their 5 year olds know how to read when my (homeschooled) ds5 is no where near knowing how to read...chalk the whole thing up to mommy bowing to peer pressure. My ds5 thanks you and I thank you

Oh, good, if it's peer pressure, you can easily ignore it.

I was afraid you're one of those people who NEED things to be clean, and NEED the people around them to participate in the cleaning. That's much harder on the children.

Now, personally, I'm WAY on the other side of the spectrum, and it was really not important for me to teach my children to clean up, not after themselves, and not after anyone else. So I really shouldn't talk about how you can relax. But even my kids, when the occasion calls for it, can handle themselves just fine.

So a reasonable amount of "this is what we need to do, we do it as a family, maybe we can make it fun" is a good happy medium, long-term

My homeschooled almost 9 yo just learned how to read.

She even went up a grade level *by herself* while I was in the hospital with her sister. She's just made another leap, so now she mostly just needs to practice for fluency and she'll be reading by herself for pleasure (there's a book that she's reading aloud and she read to her grandmother because she wanted to know what would happen next and didn't want to wait for me).

She wasn't anywhere near ready until now, but when she was ready she flew with it.

You read that correctly; she's be 9 later this month.

That's the beauty of homeschooling-- you get to wait until the kid is ready. My just 7 yo, meanwhile, will begin later this month and will probably be independent about the same time as her sister. Everyone at their own pace (and the 2 yo is probably learning to read now. She's like that).

As for cleaning, I second everything LfE said.

Just a quick Neufeld reminder, though:

COLLECT BEFORE YOU DIRECT.

Or expect nothing to happen.

i have had an easier time getting 1,2,3,6,7,8 year olds to clean up than 4 and 5 year olds. they suddenly get that you can't make them or something.

Yeah. He's definitely big into "You're not the boss!" to everyone (me included). He's realized that we can't *make* him do stuff.

I just want him to pitch in. I see Avivah's posts about how all her children pitch in to keep the family ship afloat and I really would like that for my family eventually - I want the kids to feel like important and necessary contributors. As for my needing things to be tiny - I've gotten to where I enjoy a tidy space. My brain works better there. But I can definitely create that space myself. I don't *need* the kids to help. I just feel like I'm doing them a disservice if I do it all myself - I don't want them to think I'm their maid and I definitely don't want them to expect their future spouses to clean up after them (my DH had no respect for a tidy space when we got married and he says it was because his mother always did for him). So, lots of issues wrapped up but I can leave the kids out of it for now without a problem.

As far as reading...my brain knows ds5 will read in his own good time but it's the whole homeschool thing. I'm just going to have to get used to people being critical of what we do. I already stretch the truth to people who ask how many hours we spend per day and what kind of curriculum we are using...I tried having a set time but that backfired and we were miserable so we stopped. Now we sneak things in here or there or spend more time if ds5 suddenly seems interested. As for curriculum...I have two free curricula (one reading and one math) that I downloaded and printed off and which I keep in binders with the hs'ing stuff...and we get them out about once a month.

And Neufeld...thanks for the reminder, Zeph. This is one of the things I have really been working on. Why is it that, the more I parent, the smarter and more relevant every single word of Neufeld gets??? Why do more people not know about him and why aren't they listening???

my oldest does the most resisting, i think they are programmed for that. also kids with older kid role models will want to be grown up whereas your ds5 may not like having more expectations on him than say your... infant! i dont recomend comparing a family with kids going up to 18 with a family with 4 kids under 5. not going to be the same thing at all.

My 8 1/2 yr old homeschooled ds also just recently learned to read!!!!

He also wasn't ready. Iam going to be very honest here and share that I was not 100% comfortable with this all the time and did try to encourage him and do some formal learning, trying different phonics programs, games, read aloud etc;
He was just really really busy with other stuff and was really comfortable with himself and was not interested......and then he started being more interested on his own and in a very short time he has suddenly come a long way.
It didn't bother him to ask other kids to read things for him, or that they were reading from an early age.... it has been a learning experience for me too

The past few weeks he has been making lists of things and is walking around with pen & notebook asking how to spell this and that and has books on his bed that he reads before he goes to sleep
He is still busy and on the move and takes his play very seriously and does not suddenly want to sit down and do workbooks all day, but he did learn to read in his own time and wants to read and is very proud of himself

Actually in families with older kids........it isn;t a given that the younger ones want to be like the older kids and therefore are eager to help and learn to clean up sooner...
Often time the little ones can easily get away with having the older ones doing everything. So I often have to remind one of the older ones to leave stuff for the little ones to do. For example dd 15 dislikes ds 8 being messy and leaving stuff around and not putting his clothes away etc; so she tends to just get annoyed and then do it for him. So what has he learned....do nothing and older sister will do it !!!!
SO I have to take the time to show him how to do it and so it with him etc; and tell dd to leave it alone ....it is his mess and move on

I don't think there is a magic formula......

gilla, i wanst thinking of an 8 y.o. boy wanting to belike his 15 yr old sister. more like my6 y.o. girl wanting to be like her 8 y.o. sister. do you think this is not something that occurs [in general] among more closely spaced kids?

Maybe yes, maybe not. Depends on the people and their relationship.

By us, the important thing to the kids is fairness, that the work be distributed in some sort of reasonable manner. The other thing that's important is that the things they are asked to do are things they are comfortable doing. And then we have several kids who try to get away with doing the least they possibly can (one is the youngest, and one is not).

Elisheva, if I understand your long-term goals correctly, it is that:

1. your child should know how to do stuff
2. your child should take responsibility for his own actions
3. your child should share in the responsibility of his home
3. your child should feel valued and respected for his contribution

I didn't hear this from you, but I would urge you to consider it, it's important:
4. Your child should feel obligated by the Torah to lessen any burden or difficulty his parents have

So now the question is how to get things to go in those directions, over time. Some of it he will learn by example, as you include him in your cleaning up, and explain to him why it is important to you. Some needs to be stated explicitly: you might start insisting that he helps you with packages, bring you water, make stuff up even, so that he learns to practice the laws of Kibbud Av Va'Em. Just as you teach him to wash Netilat Yadaim or keep Shabbos, or light Chanuka candles, it's a mitzvah like any other, you just happen to be the beneficiary.

Don't ask for more than he can do. He can learn all of the above by picking up a single Duplo block every day.

, elisheva, I just have to tell you what happened as I was reading the sentence 'I see Avivah's posts...'

I asked dd15 to hand me one of the Neufeld videos to watch - I haven't watched them in ages and thought I'd snatch 15 minutes to watch before my next time commitment - and she asked which one I wanted, so I paused and said, 'Counterwill'. As she hands it to me, my eye falls on your sentence and I couldn't help but choke with laughter.

Dd wanted to know what was so funny, so I explained the juxtaposition to her of feeling the most relevant dvd to watch was the one on resistance in children while someone is pointing me out as a role model of everyone working in joyful harmony.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on this. I think you're expecting a lot of a five year old. My littles don't respond well to commands, but when I take the approach of, "Come on, let's do this together, yay, what fun!" as I toss a block at the container it's supposed to go in, they help pretty readily. But really it's much, much better when I'm on the floor with them, rather than the drill sergeant barking out orders (which really doesn't accomplish much more than grumpy faces and recalcitrant attitudes). It's really about the feeling of connection, as Neufeld says.

And back to my kids - sometimes they grumble and not all of them will look at what needs to be done and do it without being asked, and I think that's okay. I don't always want to do what needs to be done, and sometimes want to close my eyes and pretend that a mess that's there will magically be taken care of by someone else. Kids are just as human as we are, so why shouldn't they sometimes feel the same way?

That's too funny, Avivah.

I got down with them today and said "we're going to tidy up together" and they mostly did really well. It's what we used to do. Then I read this blog by a hip preschool teacher about how he wants the kids to have ownership of the classroom so they do all the clean up and he and the parent volunteers just coach. Guess it works in his classroom but not in my living room. In any case, I'd rather have the shalom bayis so together it is. I also remember hating to do chores by myself as a child and even SWORE that when I was a parent my kids and I would all do chores together...sometimes we stray from our ideals, I guess.

LfE, thanks for the tips of Kibud Av v'Em. I need all the help I can get in the chinuch dept.