Consequences, How do you pick them?

[Yehudis]

I hate consequences. I hate punishing kids. I wish they would always do the right thing so I wouldn't have to do it, but I guess mashiach would have to come first.

Anyway, one of my kids has self-control issues. I think she was born like that, because one of her grandparents is very impulsive and has self-control issues (although the said grandparent might disagree with my assessment). So what can I do to teach her to have more self-control?

For example, the kids were eating popsicles, and then she finished hers and licked her sister's popsicle. Her sister got very upset, of course.

Or when we go to swimming lessons, she keeps getting into the pool before it's time for her lesson.

Or she keeps drawing on my papers or notebooks that I happen to leave somewhere (I don't usually leave important stuff, so it's not a big deal for me, but the point is, I want her to ask before messing up my stuff).

I can never think of a good consequence for those kinds of things, other than talking to her about listening to her yetzer tov and not her yetzer hara. What would you do? Thanks.

[LearningFromExperience]

You know, what you describe is not end-of-the-world kind of behavior. Yet it seems to push every button on your dial.

We all have that - something the child does, that's not wonderful, but not criminal, either - and it just makes us lose it.

It often has less to do with the particular action or even the particular child, and much more to do with something inside us. They do X, and we think, deep down, "oh no! that means she's a X type of person... that means I'm a failure as a mother ... that means she will end up like Z ...".

Is it possible that this particular behavior is pushing your buttons because of the grandparent she reminds you of?

That's the worst, when that happens...

As for the actual child and the actual behavior - self control is something people learn with time, like talking or toilet training or any of the other things you taught her to do. Similarly, you can approach it head on, as a skill. So if you know that she tends to "jump in early", you can prevent that by talking her through the right time for things, being patient, how that's what it means to be a grown-up, and how one day she will be patient just like <insert role model here>. Over time, she'll learn.

Most actions, you can just treat the symptoms - she licks someone's lollipop, she should apologize, etc.

It'll be fine, she'll turn out just fine, you'll see.

[Zephyr]

The other danger with this kind of issue is that your perception of her can become her self perception.

I'm guessing the child is older than 3.5, right? Regardless, punishment and consequences aren't the only way to go here. I would keep my eyes open for when she does control herself (and odds are, from the behaviors you are describing, you won't have to work too hard to find it), and say something like, "you wanted to eat your sister's piece of cake, but you chose not to. That takes self-control", or "I see you were ready to jump into that inviting mud pile in your new shabbat dress, but decided to stay clean. That takes maturity". Describe, describe, describe, while staying FAR away from global wording like "good girl!" and without making it your story with "I'm so proud of you!".

If the behaviors include destructive or violent behavior (especially in a girl), then we have what else to discuss. Otherwise, I would go with this approach. Punishment doesn't work half as well as catching them doing something right.

[Yehudis]

LfE -- I think you're right that I am afraid that my child might turn out like the grandparent. OTOH, I don't think it's too much to expect from her that she wouldn't lick someone else's popsicle. After all, it is stealing. Especially if her sister thinks it's yucky. Or to expect her not to touch my stuff.

So how do you enforce rules if you don't use consequences? Like, if we have a rule in the house that one should not touch someone else' things without permission, and a certain child keeps breaking that rule?

The thing is, I am not very good at enforcing rules, or at setting limits. I am much better at positive stuff, like you both are suggesting. But that doesn't help them learn that rules are rules. I have an older friend who keeps telling me that I need to learn to set limits, that my kids think there are none. So how do I do it?

[LearningFromExperience]

I'm sure you have plenty of limits. You just take them for granted.

You could use the laws of the Torah as your guide for the consequences. For instance - "if you touch someone else's things without permission, that's stealing, and you have to pay them back twice with <x>".

Then all you have to do is make sure x happens.

[Chavelamomela]

Can I recommend a great book? (If you've read it already, it worth re-reading - and re-reading, and rereading...)

"How to talk so kids can listen and listen so kids can talk"

Especially the chapters on 'engaging cooperation' and 'alternatives to punishment'

These tools can REALLY help you - a lot!

[Zephyr]

One way to look at the child's behavior is from an absolute point of view, i.e. licking is stealing, stealing is punishable by...

But that's just one perspective. Another possibility is to stop the immediate behavior while focusing on the long term. So she is licking her sister's ices without permission. you step in immediately and stop this behavior with a firm "We do not lick other people's ices. Now, would you like the red cup or the green cup for your water?" (Love those redirects!). If she persists, move her away if you can, firmly stating "we do NOT lick other people's ices."

Meanwhile, you can spend time getting to root of the problem, working on her self-control by finding her tasks that take a little more patience than she has, but she can still succeed at, and by focusing on what she does right.

No amount of punishment in the world will give her self-control. The only thing that will develop her self-control is time and some effort to genuinely allow her to succeed.

Kids are sort of like plants. They grow better if you don't squash them flat when they do something you don't like.

[Yehudis]

Zephyr, the redirecting might get her away from the popsicle, but what about the sister who's upset? Don't you think that she should know that if her sister bothers her, she gets in trouble? That there's justice in the house, that Mommy will adress the issue and not just distract the offender?

Yes, there is a lot of planting with children. But there is also buidling. We need to set limits for them, because they are not old enough to be able to do it themselves.

I once heard in a shiur an explanation why we need to discipline our children. A child's yetzer hara is much bigger than her yetzer tov, and she can't possibly overcome it by herself. That's why the parents need to provide an additional support for the yetzer tov by making it less desirable to do what the yetzer hara wants. In other words, a child needs to have the fear of punishment in order to resist the yetzer hara.

[LearningFromExperience]

I agree - fear of punishment is important.

If it's good enough for the Ribbono shel Olam to put into the Torah, it's good enough for us as parents.

The way the Torah phrases it is: if you do the right thing, these good things will happen; if you do these wrong things these bad things will happen.

I'm not sure the child's Yetzer Hara is greater than ours, we as adults have some mighty big Yetzer Haras for certain things - just different things (see the car seats discussion in E. Yisrael). The difference is that we can understand that the punishment might be delayed and yet the action is still wrong; whereas a child needs the results to be immediate.

"You will do this now, or else", and "you will stop this now or else" - this is important. For some children, the "or else" can be implied because their greatest wish is to please their parents. For others, it has to be explicit, important to them, and immediate. Also - proportionate.

Yehudis, you didn't say how old your dd is - sounds like 5 or 6? On the popsicle thing, I would ... let's see ... stop everything. Be horrified at her behavior and very firmly say "we do NOT take other people's things! It is stealing! Now you must say sorry to your sister!" and not move or allow anything to happen until she did. That is usually unpleasant enough for that age group (why do they hate saying sorry so much????). But, if she says "sorry" glibly and feels like she came out ahead, then you also have to make her give her sister something - anything - that she would accept as repayment. As long as at the end, the point is - it is not worth it to lick her sister's popsicle. Mommy makes a very big deal about it, it must be very wrong.

[Yehudis]

I think it's not that the yetzer hara is bigger, but that the yetzer tov is smaller and can't fight it so well.

Dd is 6. That's a good idea to get her to give something to her sister. Thanks!

What would you do with her drawing on my papers, or generally taking things without permission?

[LearningFromExperience]

Why don't you ask her? The "brainstorming" idea in the Faber/Mazlish books can be very fruitful.

Of the top of my head ... about the papers - you can give her papers of her own. Then, if she draws on your papers, she has to give you some of hers (doesn't matter if you can't use them).