In response to this post by Talisman.

Most trickster archetypes are male, but the Trickster as a mythic figure is a gender-bender, simply because he/she is an agent of change and chaos, Witness Loki's transformation into a mare (not just a horse), in which shape he bore Sleipneir, Odin's eight-legged horse.


I've been pondering that subject for a while, since the Change Shape, Alternate Form, and various Polymorph abilities/spells usually allow change in sex.
Whether or not this occurs at a chromosomal level is probably up to the gamers and setting, but for the most part I assume this allows complete shift in reproductive function.

As an example: Succubus.
They aren't 'female' as much as, say, both. Maybe at same time, if desired. Although the MM designers happened to take a rather conservative 'kid friendly' take on demons, sex, and gender roles, it's quite possible to become any fuckin thing you want with Polymorph, sexually.

Now, as Fey are equally morphic (ideally) what does this imply about gender, sex, and male/female polarity?
Should some Fey be stuck in single sexes, while more primal ones are fluid in both body and gender?
Sidhe, for instance, tend to appear androgynous but are such close matches to Elves in body, mind, and culture that they most likely aren't hermaphrodites.
Traditional sex-oriented races like Nymph and Dryad (female) and Satyr (male) seem to be capable of reproducing, yet only occur in a single sex. I'd rather not think about the implications of Satyrs breeding with each other, nor of the possibility that they only increase their numbers by interspecies rape (producing nothing but more satyrs)

Sprites and various 'wild Fey' could easily be sexually-morphic, as their lack of both clearly defined roles or biology as well as ample numbers could support an otherwise normally invertebrate-like dual sex.

I would rather see either greater interdependence and mutability between Fey types, blurring the boundaries between them so that when, say, a Nymph and Satyr might breed they have a chance of making any other type of humanoid Fey and/or combinations of other types; or rather, we determine that single-sex races are instead 'normal' and have variations of male/female within each, producing Male Dryads and Female Satyrs (fauns?).

Unfortunately, this conversion into dual-gender would mean the various Feybook single-sex Fey we have also seem somewhat strange, unless we ditch those same single-sex focuses and roles.
What's everyone's opinion on this?
I'm rewriting my material and editing it, although progress is much slower than I'd like, I'm simply too buisy. Ideally, aren't we all though? School, work, it all picks up in September.. oi..
I'm glad to be doing 'real life' stuff but when I go to post more Feybook stuff I realize that I'm not keeping pace like I did a month ago.... I'm sorta doing a 'leaps and bounds' pace, oh well.
I'll pop out something when my editing and cutting-down is finished....

Burning Wheel has satyrs that essentially live to rape female humans and reproduce that way.

I actually thought of writing them up in D&D, but have not done so yet. The idea is good but incompatible with the normal D&D satyrs.


Generally on sex and gender and such. My suggestion is that it depends on the fey. Some are, by tradition or invention, of single sex. Some may be of none. Some of several (why be limited to two?). Some can probably decide it on a day-by-day basis.

I'd like to tie it together as a believable ecology, though.

Might turn out somewhat like Pokemon or Digimon with 'evolutions' of sorts, but as Fey are right now, it's all jumbled, disconnected, and reliant on Divine Creationism, which doesn't sit well with me.

It's compatible with D&D, since MM Fey tend to be very vague as far as roles outside of combat and providing XPs to players.

Here's a take on it...off the top of my head.

The fey are kind of like the "Outsiders" of the Prime Material Plane. At the creation of all things, Chaos was far stronger than Law (at least in that phase of the Eternal Cycle). The fey were the spontaneous generations of the primal world...magically spawn embodiments of places, things and even new concepts. At this stage, few if any of the fey had any real form, though the vast number of forms they chose were still filtered through the reality of the PMP. As Law slowly gained strength in the Cycle, the fey began to slowly settle into recognizable forms. At this stage, the dreams of mortals also began to influence the fey, bending many of them to a more humanoid form, making them even more distinct from the elementals. This, of course, included gender.

Due to the many different strains of fey that have evolved alongside the mortal plane, and due to their chaotic origins. the fey have become a very disparate lot. This includes many different ways of reproducing. Some fey races still spontaneously generate, either in Faerie, or in the mortal plane. This is especially true of sprites and smaller trooping fey, such as brownies. It also includes the inanime, fey that reflect the natural world. Nymphs are the most obvious example. Higher trooping fey are more likely to rely on some approximation of "biological reproduction", though biology might have very little to do with it. It is true that fey can mate with mortals, but such pairings rarely produce offspring. When they do, the children are usually refered to as changlings.

To complicate matters even more, some fey can use either. The aforementioned nymphs can also mate with other fey (and even humans, it is said). Most female children are strongly nymph blooded, if not full nymphs, while male children often take after the father's race.

Kudos to you, Sig for starting such a controversial and neglected topic!

My take on the "one-sex fey" like dryads has always been that, yes, all dryads are female, and all satyrs are male. Dryads and satyrs can mate (and it's not necessarily rape...in Greek mythology, nymphs and fauns often have wild, erm, "parties"). Any female children will be of the mother's race, while male children will be of the father's race.

For certain specific fey, there may be additional factors. For example, a dryad cannot be born until there is a tree ready to bond to a new dryad within range (a nebulous enough statement). Also, the fey probably have a low birth rate, else all the world's woodlands would be overrun with satyrs and half-satyrs.

I do like your idea, Sig, that fey children might not be of their parents' races. This could explain why in a given population of fey, there aren't enough of one type to form a "breeding population." Instead of producing "more of the same," the natural energies shape the newborn fey spirit into (1) a creature appropriate to the locale, (2) a creature shaped by the circumstances of its birth, or (3) a replacement for a fey who has recently perished.

"Trooping fairies" probably have a much more humanlike reproductive system (socially speaking), but as fey, they are probably fertile with any other fey.

I think the "lower fey" (i.e., sprites, satyrs, dryads, etc) should be sexually solid--a male satyr is always male, a female satyr (if such things exist) is always female. However, the more powerful/tricksy/shapecrafty fey, such as true fey shapeshifters and the Lords of the Courts, should be of mutable sexuality. Aldaron, Lord of the Generic Court, mught transform into Aldara, Queen of the Generic Court.

I figure that, for shapeshifters and trickster-types, this could be a chaotic, whimsical occurance. A shapeshifter fey spots a handsome mortal man, and--blip!--becomes a woman. For the Lords and Ladies, it should be less frequent and more significant--perhaps there's some social taboo associated with changing gender, or it can only be done on the night of the half moon.

Nice. Please include that in some form in your setting material!
I've stated similar, but we should eventually look at selections by multiple contributors and vote on which best presents the idea, whichever idea that may be on gender.

Changelings.. ha. Speaking of which, I'll rip off something similar from Eberron and make it a template or one-shot racial level for Fey, so they can get that minor shapeshifting and other traits without being limited to a Changeling Doppleganger-race...

About the morphic, interchangeable Fey races: If I post a sampling of a project I have a love/hate relation with, namely my "seperate-monster-abilities-from-the-monsters" XML chart, would anyone like to use it?
It's sort of a shorthand list of every monster in the MM1, their various Su/Ex/SpL abilities, and appropriate levels to gain at. They could be easily ported to feats with only a Fey level requirement, making them availible to ANY FEY!
Example: Nymph's Unearthly Grace. It's a 6-HD race with LA+7, which ideally makes it a L13 ECL/PC level (though I have major problems with both racial HD and LA <_<), Unearthly Grace would be OK to gain as a straight-out feat at character level 13.
Voila.
Likewise with other abilities, like the blinding beauty and so on. A blindingly beautiful sprite, troll, or red cap would all be possible (maybe with Charisma requirement ha)

Thanks!
I like the 3 options you listed. That could be a focus for a section I'll write...

Trooping faeries meaning Sidhe and the like? Yep. They are usually the most humanoid in tales. Could be like a stable anchor, the go-betweens for mortals and the more.. uhh... exotic Fey.

5th paragraph.. verrry nice. Is the ruler King or Queen? Who can tell which.
Maybe the Queen of Air and Darkness is also something equally sinister and male, since he/she killed their mate and had to take both roles. heh. A Lord of the Hunt, perhaps?
Or maybe something quite Devilish...

Social constructs about where and when to change gender just might be the solution for this dilemna. Our info on Fey Courts should indeed include this topic.
When we solidify more unique season-independant Courts/tribes, the role of gender within each group and social circle (working class, artisans, rulers) should be mapped out.

Isn't it odd how something so basic as gender roles and sex in a setting could be so commonly passed-by in RPG writing?
Anyone else think it's time to write for more mature gamer audiences, without resorting to "Book of Erotic"-type taudriness? (although it's still quite a good book HAHA)

I believe we have the maturity to discuss this topic here, but once released into 'Teh Intarnets' it might gain infamy among the more. umm. less-mature readers.

...Which is just what I want, being the Loki-like guy I am. :wacko:

I'm all in favor of your "monster abilities" list...however, I think the individual abilities may need a wee bit more consideration that what you mentioned. For example, Unearhly Grace = 13th-level feat...maybe. Keep in mind that, for a nymph, Unearthly Grace is balanced by her 6d6 HD (less that 13d4, in terms of hp), etc. I would be VERY leery of letting, say, a 13th-level paladin or sorceer take this as a feat.

As for infamy...'tis a form of fame! And it's what we need in order to get this product noticed. As long as we keep the "sex" section tasteful, I see no problems at all. B)

I've seen worse for PrC abilities at L13!
OK maybe splitting it into one for each bonus: to AC, and to each save individually.
Each can be gained BEFORE L13, so that by L13 the Fey has all 4 and an equivalent to Unearthly Grace.

The Green Ronin Book of Fey has 2 feats that do the same, with very few requirement; one for AC, the other for all saves.

I'm against adding double ability scores to saves, as in Charisma AND the normal stat, since therein lies abuse. Replacing the stat is much better, as by Weapon Finesse.

Yet, Paladin has a similar trait at L1. Consider that. Sorc/Paladin, or any high-CHA Fey with a single level of Paladin...

I'm not saying it's horrible, I'm just saying this (and other monster abilities) bear a close examination before we allow them as feat for PCs.

L2, actually...and nw, if you'll excuse me, I need to split some hairs :P

Personally, and I know this contradicts the RAW, I would rule that multiple "Grace" effects provide the same type of bonus (a "grace bonus") and therefore do not stack.

Heh well if everyone agreed on the subject, I'd be a little worried, hm Talisman?

Sorry. I shoulda checked the Paladin. <_< Still, damned easy; just maintain that LG alignment for 2 levels then dump it, and CHA-to-saves is anyone's!


Your ruling makes more sense than Wizards designers may have considered.
Indeed there should be a name for every bonus applicable to a character, and few of them to boot.

If we make it, say, Sacred bonus, similar types such as Grace-like features from class/race simply won't stack. This would prevent Nymph/Paladin combos and the like, of which I fear mildly (just hit em with Charisma damage, if it makes past the astounding 50+ saving throws....)

What do you think, though? A feat for each:
Cha-to-AC as Deflection bonus but also counts as Sacred or w/e (there's a Complete Warrior feat for Sorcerer/Monks that does this)
Cha-to-Fort
Cha-to-Reflex
Cha-to-Will (similar to Force of Will feat, only better)

I believe there are similar feats for each in various ;official' splat books, but reprinting them with different names shouldn't violate copyrights since it's a basic function.
The requirements will be small, too. Essentially just being Fey and having a high enough level and Charisma are about it.

Heres an article series by Skip Williams. Not very informative but sorta interesting. Take what Skip writes with much caution.. this guy supposedly 'ruined 3rd Edition' according to some other more radical (ie. progressive) designers..

"Does It Stack?" http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040120a
the others http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg

Skip doesn't work for WOTC now btw. He was booted with 3.5e. Heh..

Its a common folklore theme that fairies are reliant on humans in many regards, like they sometimes need a human mid-wife to give birth. Maybe the proccess of breeding requires a mortal womb or seed?

an interesting idea, except some people may think we're saying that fey are parasites, I do like it though

Fairies are often represented as an effigy of mankind, intimately tied to their mortal makers.

And when I say makers, I mean that in a litteral sense. There is no established history or concrete schema, but quite a few stories represent faries as biproducts of human sin or kindness. A fairy that punishes mortals for greed or cowardice doesn't exist until the act is committed (or the events leading to the event occur).

In another specific story, it's actually the thought of a fairy that creates it. Just like it can be argued something doesn't exist until it's percieved. Fairies in some instances shadow 'more sophisticated' philosophies.

I don't mean to suggest that this book take an existentialist slant, but, it's a tad more original than 'you dream about fairies,' but it's also inclusive of dreams.

That's actually not original. In Nomine, by SJG, has the exact same concept with its Ethereal Plane. And arguably that's the basis of Planescape, where belief=existence.

If you'll look at the "Fey and Dreams" thread, you'll find that the direction we've taken with dreams is a little more complicated than "you dream about fairies."

I can tell that in the end this is going to come down to a very dull and crude question to make a decision.
Should be amusing.

?

What?

lol - nvm, im just being obscure and weird like normal

As much as I hate to practice thread necromancy...

it seems like we never really decided anything on this. Does anyone have any further thoughts?

I'm redoing the evolution of Fey from Sprite to other forms with game mechanics in mind (as in... you can begin play with a low level Sprite, but evolve into a Grey Elf/Sidhe later), but keeping in mind that certain Fey types do 'breed true' like mortals.

So, I'll read this in detail and present some summed options for individual campaigns.
If gamers want to use one, any, all, or no type of Fey reproduction, it's their choice, but making the types clear to identify should be priority.

Here's what I'm considering:

Sexual
Cloning
Inductive (abducting kids to transform, or infecting mortals like vampires do)
Polyp (similar to certain jellyfish and other simple organism life cycles; the reproductive process produces a stationary organism, such as trees, that produce young)
Genesis (spawn from the Dreamlands by powerful Fey will or mortal dreams and then travel to Fey planes, may be a risky topic since it's open ended... but worth considering)

Eek! Alesian is a threadcromancer! :ph43r:

Seriously, though...

Sexual - Works for me. ...What? Don't give me that look! I do like the idea that any children will not necessarily be of either parent's race (though this should be the exception, not the rule).

Cloning - :blink: I don't like this on. Sci-fi fey? Fungus fey? Amoeba fey? Flatworm fey? Nope; I just don't like it.

Inductive - Cool. Creepy, yet not innately evil. Morally ambiguous. Me likey.

Polyp - (laugher)...Sorry. The way you explain it, Sig, it could work for fey with strong ties to plants or minerals (dryads and oreads, for instance), but I don't see it working for any other type. We should probably come up with a different name, though (snicker). Seedling? Spark? Not "polyp," though. (snort)

Genesis - Yep. This, IMHO, should be the primary origin for new and potent fey types. I suspect this happens only rarely and in times of great crisis (or maybe it causes times of great crises...imagine the upheaval among the Courts if great numbers of some powerful, previously-unknown type of fey begin appearing).

Fear my thread zombie!

I pretty much agree with Talisman. I do like the idea of some fey mimicking the reproductive cycles of their real-world analogues though...

Nothin wrong with a lil NECRO now and then BWAHAHAHAAA

By Cloning I meant what Talisman posted a while ago about Dryads and Satyrs having kids of their own sex rather than any weird crossbreed (though, I'm working on making that possible :P)
Female would always be of the mother's type, males of the father's.

Any other options you can think of, spit it out!

How about eggs?

And I also came up with an idea of "Conglomeration", when multiple Fey loosen their forms into clouds of energy, meld, and produce a few new Fey such as Sprites from the chaos.
The tiny little things would then grow into other kinds, but that needed work. And an experienced designer on the Gaming Den shot the idea down... don't know if he liked it, but he did write that it was hard to work out and that most players don't care.

I'll stick with the concept of Sprites evolving into other forms, but that will require a Sprite racial class with the ability to evolve stated explicitly in the race around Fey Hit Dice level 3 or so.
*jots on to-do list*

I'd like to discuss fey gender for a moment.

There are some reef fish that exist in schools of several females and a single male. If the male dies, the largest female undergoes a hormonal transformation and becaomes male.

I imagine that some fey have specific situations where a change in gender is called for. Others, such as Inari or Ariel, might consider themselves post-gender (or are at least comfortable with changing gender when the whim strikes them). For other fey, I imagine the idea is fairly taboo.

This also brings us to the subject of gender roles. The fey feature on WotC implies that the sidhe are matriarchal, but I don't think this is necessarily so. But I also don't think they're necessarily patriarchal or egalitarian, either. Rather, since many fey breeds are gender specific, there is an appearance of gender roles that doesn't necessarily exist. Satyrs are expected to do satyr things, dryads are expected to do dryad things, and never the twain shall meet.

This leads to another question about fey gender roles; the issue of fey taking partners. I imagine that animalistic fey mimic the animal they are based upon; for example, a lion fey might have a harem of females, while swan fey would mate for life. Gender specific fey (satyrs and nymphs, for example) probably pick from whatever they like. I imagine marriage, the way it exists among humanoids, is more common among the more humanoid fey, such as the sidhe and the Tuatha.

Also, some fey are gay, just as some mortals are gay. Yes, I went there. Some fey care about gender, some don't. And I imagine there are some prominent gay fey nobles. Fey views on things like this differ from the views of mortals.

YARRR too many options.

You do realize we will have to throw it all in?

There's no way in hell I'd cut any of those options out in favor of any other.

I totally agree on the animalistic fey part, breeding like the animals they mimic/emulate.
I'll throw something in a Fey feat I'm making next that has limited Druid Wildshape capabilities. It could allow the Fey to breed with normal animals of its associated type(s), producing either normal animals, full Fey (with the same abilities... think tannuki like in the Miyazaki film Pom Poko), or animal with Fey-like template (which I believe either Galliard or Talisman made?)

Perhaps we should begin grouping some iconic Fey by their reproductive methods.
Not all of them, but about 5+ per category should set an example.
I'll think about this and get something up tomorrow.

My thoughts...

Animalistic fey, as stated, should mimic the animals they're based on.

Common fey I see as being fairly whimsical and free with sex...heck, many of the fey legends talk about handsome mortal men/beautiful mortal damsels lured away for *cough* nefarious purposes.

Gender-Switching: I actually don't like this. If a colony of nymphs gets cut off from fey society, one of them morphs into a male nymph? A satyr? Nope. Individual fey (especially shape-shifters) can switch gender; there may even be a Grande Ceremony to do this, but I vote against spontaneous gender-reversal.

Shape-shifters, of course, are another story (see Loki or Coyote for prime examples of shapechanging letches). Natural shapeshifters--not just fey with access to wild shape or polymorph--are able to switch genders at the drop of a hat, and consequently have very free ideas about gender roles and sexual appeal.

The courts, I think, ought not to be all matriarchial (or patriarchal--rather, each court's description should include a line or two as to how this works. Court A, ruled by a queen, might be severely biased in favor of women...or in favor of men, as the queen bestows her favors on her paramour of the moment. Court B might be egalitarian, with personal merit being the primary factor. Court C might favor women this month, redheads the next, and anyone with green eyes the next, as determined by its chaotic Lord.

Gay fey (hey, it rhymes): This could be tricksy. The standard D&D material has homosexuality as an invisible non-issue: they literally don't address it at all, allowing individual GMs/players to either ignore the issue or deal with it as they wish. If we include something on gay fey, I can see three possible results:

1. A sidebar noting that there are gay fey. Result: Raising the issue. Players are still free to do whatever they want.

2. A benevolent fey NPC (such as the ruler of a Court). Result: As #1, plus depicting "gay" in a positive light. We might lose the lucrative Neanderthal Redneck demographic <_< .

3. A malevolent fey NPC. Result: As #1, but with a greater risk that we'll be percieved as "gay-bashing." I'd avoid this unless we have at least as many gay "good guys" as gay "bad guys."

I appreciate your wanting to raise the issue, alesian, but I do think we should be subtle about it. Having a few gay NPCs and a sidebar about the matter is one thing. Hanging major plot hooks on it, having multiple (same-gender) Court rulers obviously in love with each other, and otherwise shoving it in the reader's face...that'd be overdoing it.

Sig: Alesian's brought up gay fey; now you want to add fey bestiality? :P Seriously, that sounds fine to me...I assume you're referring to my dreamshaped template.

This was actually meant as an outgrowth of animalistic fey. If you have a fey based off a reef fish, then you can have that happen. I didn't mean for it to apply to all fey...that would be far to weird.

I vote option #2, personally.

I must admit, I hadn't considered the idea of reef-fish fey.
This would be appropriate for fey based on frogs as well (ever see/read Jurassic Park?)

"The fey...they're reproducing!"

"But how? When we cast Origin of the Species, we made sure only to make female fey!"

"Well, I did base their design on Slaad..."

"You've doomed us all."

:D

I have one comment to add about transgender-fey: Dopplegangers, Eberron Changelings, Sorcerers, Wizards and any general/Transmuter Arcane casters of at least level 5-6 (Alter Self) have the potential for gay/switching complexities.
And it's been like that for a loooong time.

We wouldn't be adding fuel to fire as much as reminding people of what they (mostly) don't want to consider in a supposedly all-audience game.
And that's great! :P
Subtlety, though... I can't help there.

Talisman: I realize the beastiality complications. And.. I have no problem with that.
Whether it should be cause for alarm or not, I don't know. Perhaps I've been on the internet for too long (12 years?)

My vote is #2 for gay fey if any are to be exampled. Although, if we present options like that in a broad sense, wouldn't most to all Nymphs be gay? Followers of Diana, at least... I thought they hated men. Just like their leader.
Or do you mean, create specific example gay fey?

I second that about Court descriptions and criteria for promotion, as I wrote a draft intro for Fey Nobles and realized we had no clear objectives for getting favor of certain courts.
Even something as simple as broad categories for whichever ruler-type could be fine, and then gamers would pick the criteria like a template for their various in-game Court personalities (rather than stat it out for each ruler... Alesian has done enough for Courts, I wouldn't want to wade through that and write new descriptors for each. ow.)


And yes. We have opened Pandora's Sex Box.
Damned, damned, damned.

I've only just begun.

Mwuh ha ha ha ha!

Seems like the consensus favors option #2.

I believe, Sig, that Talisman was referring to making a gay NPC. What you described with nymphs would be closer to option #1.

Anyways, I think I can do subtle. Subtle is easy.

My "iconic gay-fey NPC" vote for now: Puck.

Seriously.

For female, Mab/Maev.

May I hear your reasoning behind these choices?

Puck: read Shakespeare. You'll see it too.

Mab: strong willed, independant female. No man would be good enough for her, and given the predominant Fey matriarchy, there would be tons of choices....

And let's not forget Diana/Danu, and her girls-only club of Nymphs.

I have read Shakespeare.

Didn't we just say Fey were not completely (or even mainly) matriarchal?

Diana and Danu come from entirely seperate mythologies. Danu's had children, and Diana's thing is more her virginity.

Did we?


Oh, and Diana and Danu are different words for the same deity. Same role, same origin, variations through distance between the cultures.

Irish from Iberians from Spain from Latin culture.

Diana and Danu have nothing to do with each other.

First of all, the belief that the Irish came from Spain is a theory that is not necessarily believed by all scholars. Even if they did, they would have left Spain long before it was conquered by the Romans.

Gaelic does not derive from Latin. (Irish) Gaelic derives from either Insular Celtic or Q-Celtic, depending on which lingual theory you believe. The only connection with Latin is that they are both Indo-European languages. But by that, you could say Gaelic derives from Farsi Persian. Keep in mind that Ireland was never conquered by the Romans.

Julius Caesar tried to identify each of the English-Celtic Gods with Roman gods, but most scholars dismiss his identifications. He was a conquering general, after all, and it was standard Roman belief that everyone worshipped the same gods by different names.

If we are going to try to find a cognate for Danu in Roman mythology, the clearest canidate is Gaia. They are both ancestral Earth mothers, pretty easy to associate with one another. Diana and Danu do not have similar roles...at all. If we want to find a canidate for Diana's equivalent in Celtic mythology, we have to try a lot harder, and ultimately we fail. Maybe Rhiannon, for the moon connection...but that's about their only connection. Maybe Morrigan, for the anti-male connection...but the Morrigan was a lot meaner than Diana, and she definetly wasn't a virgin.

Maybe, if you go back thousands and thousands of years, to a time before recorded history, Danu and Diana dervive from the same archetypal figure. But that is an enormous, epic-level maybe.

The archetypal figure thing is popular among scholars right now, but you get to the point where two related figures in mythology are completely different. Lugh and Loki derive from the same deity, but couldn't be less similar. Same with Hermes and Odin.

Also, from Talisman:

Which I agree with.

Aha, that's fine.

...Anyways, I have a few figures in mind. All it takes is adding a sentence or two to a description. I've been needing to update a few of the earlier courts anyways, and I can make the change then.

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