The Devious Plot to find New Reader, (which hasn't been made yet)

[Blitz]

So, yeah... not a lot of people read Far Out There. Aside from the fact that this presents an obstacle to my plans of retiring in obscene wealth by 30 (hah), it makes it difficult for any sort of fan community to really get going. I mean, look at how often this forum's been used over the past year. I'm not sure what bare minimum of active fans is required before a fandom manages to become self-sustaining, but I'm pretty sure we're not there yet.

Frankly, I think that sucks, and not just because of the lack of unseemly wealth thing, either. I really, honestly like Far Out There. If somebody else was writing it, I'd read the heck out of it, and even now I'd love to have more like-minded folks to geek out over FOT with. So... how to we find more?

See, here's the thing: I'm just not that good at self-promotion. This is bad, seeing as how 95% of successful webcomics got that way on the strength of relentless, tireless, shameless self-promotion (the remaining 5% rely on dumb luck). So any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Heck, even constructive criticism of the shaky attempts I've already made wouldn't hurt.

So, thoughts?

[Seros Senric]

Personally I think there is two parts to this: Gathering more readers, and getting readers to actually comment (at the site or in this forum)
I'll focus mostly on my random thoughts on gathering readers first. No guarantees that they will be useful and/or coherent.

Yes, you are right about self-promotion and dumb-luck being important factors in increasing readership for webcomics. (or increasing popularity for most things)
Improving self-promotion I can't really say much about since I also suck at that.

But, some of the little things you are probably already doing include having a link to your comic from your comments on other webcomics (such as you haev when you comment on Sandra and Woo), and in signature of whatever forums you post at, and by abusing Project Wonderful to try and put your adds at the lowest price at every obscure webcomic or other site that uses it that you visit any more than once a year. (since the method of you choose what to pay over how long can allow you to effectively have your ads as the default for when there are no others there)

The next one up from that is getting the readers you already have to do your advertising for you. Word of mouth can be awesome, many stories of things being massively successful with just word-of-mouth. But again, that's something that isn't reliable and you have virtually no control over. I've told a few friends about this comic, but I don't think any have actually started on it (although one of those friends I have managed to get to be an avid reader and commenter on a couple other webcomics, I'm still trying to get him to read through Far Out There though)

Another thing is how to tell you actually have readers. I don't know how many you have, since all I really see is the comments on each comic, where lately it has looked to be just CarrotSticks and I. More reliable to look at the site stats. Although, to my knowledge the number of non-commenting readers always outnumbers the number of commenting readers (except for possibly a few webcomics that only have RL friends/family of the author read/comment and are dead within 6 updates, but they don't count)

Of course with commenting on comics, everyone is different. Taking myself for example, the probability of my commenting on an active webcomic is inversely proportional to the number of comments the webcomic receives.
So one webcomic I used to comment on I don't much anymore because there are a lot of other people commenting on it now, while another used to have a lot of commenters but now doesn't so I comment on it a fair amount now.
I don't really know why this is the case, probably something about how I feel that what I would want to say would probably have already been said even if it wasn't or something, but its why for example you probably won't see me commenting on Sandra and Woo despite me reading every update and the comments for it.
Of course there is more to my commenting habits than that, but that is a main thing for me that I feel is different from probably everyone else's commenting behaviour.

And with all that, I'm not sure I actually said anything constructive.
Although something you might be able to do is send out Far Out There Christmas cards to all of your friends and relatives, with the url somewhere on the card. Who knows? Maybe one of their acquaintances will see the card and decide to see what its about.
...So yeah, dumb luck

[Blitz]

One good ramble deserves another!

Funny you should mention Project Wonderful, 'cos that's something where I've tried a LOT of different strategies. Sometimes I do try to focus on obscure webcomics, since there's less chance of getting outbid. But the problem is, if a page is fairly obscure, then there's not really anyone to see the ad (curse you, logic!) So then I go and bid on more popular sites... or at least the most popular ones that still have ad space I can actually afford. But therein lies another problem... two, actually: sometimes the low price is a fluke and I get outbid in a second 'cos, you know, it's a popular site and everyone wants the space. OTHER times, the reason the space is so cheep is because the people who visit this site never click on anything, so nobody else wastes time bidding on it. Thus, I get my ad displayed, but it doesn't matter 'cos no traffic comes through. Either way, the REALLY hot ad space costs more than I can afford (which is pretty much anything) So yeah, I'm still kind of not sure what the "right" way to be doing this is.

Oh, but speaking of which, Project Wonderful is one of the ways I track traffic, since it records how many ad displays I've had per day (both individuals and page views). It's also convenient since it records where incoming traffic is coming from, so I know if a specific ad paid off, or if somebody linked to a comic or something. Unfortunately, it can't record anyone using an ad blocker (since, you know, it's an ad). SmackJeeves stats page has a more reliable visitor/hit count, though it can't say where the traffic's coming from. Between those two, I can keep decent tabs on who reads this stuff.... which, just in case you were wondering, has been averaging around a hundred individuals per day (a very rough average, it can fluctuate wildly)

But you're right, the really active portion of any fandom is only going to be a small fraction of any fandom as a whole. That's why I try not to get TOO petulant about more people not replying/doing stuff. Percentage-wise, this is about normal, so whining "YOU GUYS NEED TO DO MORE!" isn't going to yield any results. We need more people in general before more of that special breed of fans who actually DO stuff will emerge.

Also, just a random note, I'm glad I'm not the only person who rarely comments on things what already have a lot of comments.

Moving on, you totally hit the nail on the head about word-of-mouth. A specific enforcement from somebody you know (or whose stuff you follow) caries way more weight than a random ad, since it comes as an enforcement from somebody whose opinion matters to you. The problem is GETTING those. Back when I was on Drunk Duck, I was semi-good at scoring plugs from other DD comics, especially during the Mad Scientist Convention, where I did all those background cameos. Everybody wants their readers to see their characters in someone else's comic, right? Unfortunately, I just don't read as many webcomics as I used to, so I don't really have many of those connections to exploit anymore (though I DO have a little something in the works for Halloween, *insert ominous laugh*)

[Seros Senric]

Yeah, I don't actually use Project Wonderful or any other ad services, because I've never needed to. So I also don't really know what to do with it, but having your ad in the gaps between other ads could get at least one person to see it.

And yeah, really do need more people before there are fans that do stuff around here. I'm really not used to being one, and I don't think I am, but I can pretend to be one for a while

I'm trying to think of how I managed to find Far Out There. I'm pretty sure I came across it from at least two different ways though.

Yeah, cameos, guest comics and link exchanges seem to be good ways of gaining readers, and also having a character from your comic as one of the ones they have to click on in order to vote at topwebcomics.

Hmm.. Your implication for what may happen for Halloween has me a little intrigued
Although we don't have Halloween here... The children don't have to dress-up to scare away spirits, since they are already scary enough, and we can dress up and force people to give us confectionery any time of the year.
Don't actually know if there's anything more to it than that.

[Blitz]

(Gah, sorry for the delay. I've been working like mad to try and get the page buffer built back up)

It's been a very long time since I lived anyplace that really "did" Halloween myself. I mean, it happens pretty much everywhere here, in the sense that stores have sales on candy and stuff with pumpkins on 'em, and a few people even put "spooky" fake cobwebs out on their house for a week. But I can only think of one time off the top of my head that I actually saw any trick or treaters at my door. (Definitely won't happen this year, what with my being in an apartment and all)

But that's a bit of a ramble, isn't it? What's RELEVANT is it gives me an excuse to do a Halloween cosplay page! And this year, the costumes are going to be of a very Internet-based origin (the sort that just MIGHT result in some links!)

Anyway, Project Wonderful: Yeah, it's not great relying on the kinds of spaces I can afford right now, but as you rightly said, it's something and something is better than nothing. And really, getting some serious ad coverage costs a LOT more than you'd think. I mean, look at Sandra & Woo: that's an ad campaign that's everywhere, and the results have obviously been terrific, but way back in Feburary last year, it'd already cost nearly THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS. That's... not quite within my realm of possibility right now.

Also, now I'm all curious. How exactly DID you stumble onto Far Out There?

[Seros Senric]

That's just it, I don't actually remember. Which is surprisingly common for my favourite webcomics.
But I am sure I had stumbled on it a few times from a few different ways before I actually decided to start reading it, since I remember thinking something along the lines of "It seems I keep encountering this webcomic. That must be a sign that I should be reading it!"

Of those ways, I can probably make some alright guesses, since it seems that Far Out There is after Sandra and Woo in my webcomic list (which is mostly in the order of starting to read them) so your comments there may have been one way, but I'm sure I first encountered this comic before I started with Hazard's Wake, and that one is quite a way before Sandra and Woo in my list. (HW is another one I don't remember how I discovered, but was probably from one of the Comic Genesis ads they have to other webcomics hosted on that site, although now HW has it's own site)
Another possible way was from TV Tropes, discovering webcomics was one of the few ways I had to escape from that place, although now I can almost escape at will which is awesome.
Another way that I have found quite a few webcomics is when a character from it is the one you have to select when voting at TWC, I'll often check out comics that have characters that look vaguely interesting, but I don't reember if any Far Out There characters were a part of that.
There's always the possibility that I may have seen an ad, I'm pretty sure a big "IN SPACE!!!" would have caught my eye.

The Halloween cosplay page does seem like a good idea, things like that and cameos do seem to cause links to happen. And more links generally means more exposure.

And yeah, most advertising campaigns do cost a ridiculous amount of money, which may in part be why they tend to be successful. (Well, you'd hope they would be after spending that much on it) But spending a lot of money on advertising is only really something you can do if you are going to be getting a greater return, and I really don't know if you are making any money off this, but probably not.

Oh and delays are fine. I've got plenty of other things to help me procrastinate

[Blitz]

Well, THAT'S good. Lord knows we can't have anyone actually ACCOMPLISHING things

You know, now that you mention it, I really should do some more Top WebComics character pics. I submitted Avatar as one a WHILE back, but I think they expire at some point. I guess I should check on that either way. Thanks for reminding me!

Also, the omni-present ad is how I've been suckered into most of the more recent webcomics I've picked up (namely Bittersweet Candy Bowl and the oft-mentioned Sandra & Woo) Also, they both do something I've been meaning to do for a while: more than one ad design. That seems like a really good idea, since you don't tune it out as easily as when you see the same one design over and over again. If only I didn't already have a bajillion things that still need doing...

*glares at mountain of half-finished drawing for new character profile pages*

[Seros Senric]

Hmm... Avatar being one of the characters at TWC does ring a bell, so that may have been one way I found it...
But yes, you should definitely submit character pics again.


And yes, more than one ad design does seem to be a good idea. I understand how often you can simply gloss over things that you have seen before.
As long as none of them are annoying... I run an ad-blocker, but I have it so I manually block ads. Basically, if an ad doesn't annoy me it gets to stay.
(Annoying ads are usually ones that are either NSFW or have sound. Websites should never have sound unless you explicitly tell it you are ok with sound.)


I kind of understand with having a bajillion things that need to be done... But I'm sure most people do

[Blitz]

It's a convenient excuse... a little TOO convenient, unfortunately.

But yeah, as I alluded to earlier, I'm already swimming in new art 'cos I'm trying to revamp the Profiles. Whatcha wanna bet I can make a few new ads out of 'em?

Yay for ideas!

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

I have a couple of ideas...

ONE: Some of the better ways I've seen artists on the internet "cash in big" (Hahaha! That just sounds funny to me!), is when they commonly reference other works. The incentives following Ichabod are great, BUT (<--- I hate that word as much as you do) your Ponies bit on "Conventional Wisdom" raked it a butt-load of visitors. I've seen other web comics do well because they would follow a goofy story arc where all of the regular characters were somehow transported to the world of HALO, and were dying and re-spawning mid-conversation and stuff.

I would suggest referencing popular topics FOT as well, like you did the "Conventional Wisdom". (Sadly, every "Scary Movie" also did really well to mock current celebrity events.) Doing Ponies all over again wouldn't be a bad idea, but there are a ton of other popular material out there to reference as well.

Unfortunately, the kind of references that would need to be made for this marketing scheme to work aren't kind of references that can be placed subtlety in the background, GAINAX-style. You need to basically "rip-off" content, to the point of out-right spoofing and everyone reading KNOWS that you're spoofing material. Even more unfortunate still, is that a quick glance at the popular things of today show a myriad of items that generally suck or are just extremely distasteful, and will probably make some of your older fans hate you if you try to incorporate it in you works. ("Why is Charlie Sheen talking with Layla??? I will have nightmares about this for the rest of my life!!!")

TWO: If you know other people on CafePress or other store sites that have well-to-do stores of their own, another option would be to hook-up with those people and ask of you could sell some of your stuff in their stores and split the earnings. Just make sure that the merchandise has on it "www.faroutthere.com" in the corner or something like that.

So, unless you can actually spend more money and shamelessly self promote through ordering a bunch if t-shirts and leaving them at Hot Topics across D.C., setting up an actually booth at anime conventions, advertising on more popular ad spaces, or anything like that, what I've written above seems to be one of your few options at the moment. (If I can think of anything else, I'll let you know.) Or you can just, ya know, buy some cans of spray paint and deface billboards on the interstate with "READ FAROUTTHERE.COM". Hopefully people would be able to catch it next to the "JESUS SAVES" graffiti.

[Blitz]

Funny you should mention graffiti, not 'cos I've actually considered spray painting buildings per se, but some of the stunts I HAVE considered had the same downside (sort of) Whenever I'm at conventions and want to dump fliers all over the place, it's always a challenge to find that middle ground between "enough coverage for people to notice" and "so much that it gets on people's nerves." 'Cos here's the thing: my names on each and every page of these comics, so if somebody wanted to come after me for littering, I'd have basically provided them with the link for tracking me down. So, yeah, so burning "FAROUTTHERE.COM" into any fields just yet.

As for the crossover/shout-out/"look at this reference" idea, that's a whole different kind of challenge. You know me, I do love squeezing in references to stuff, but there's only so much of that a comic can take without damaging it's ability to tell its story properly. In particular, if I were to go off the deep end and actually DO that Charlie Sheen cameo *shudder* or some other obviously ludicrous thing now, the memory of that absurdity would damage Far Out There's credibility if I tried to do a more serious story line later on (and I think all serialized webcomics are required by law to have at least one ill-advised stab at serious drama at SOME point in their run)

Also, just 'cos you brought it up, I should probably point out that the blast of brony traffic Conventional Wisdom got that one time was specifically due to Equestrial Daily posting a link to that comic in its Nightly Roundup. They actually have a rule about only linking to a webcomic once to prevent abuse like, well, what we're talking about now (and no, that second Pony comic didn't bring in anywhere near as many hits just on its own)

But that's why I specifically mentioned doing stuff to get links from other webcomics. I can put Charlie Sheen or Halo in as many comics as I want, but the odds of actually having Sheen or Bungie directly acknowledge them are slim at best (Well, maybe stating the odds of Charlie Sheen doing ANYTHING is unwise, but the point still stands that it's unpredictable) Better yet, that allows one to be a bit pickier and only do stuff that won't date the material or what have you.

The Cafe Press idea is one I'd never thought of, though. I mean, I know plenty of people who split tables at conventions and thus benefit from each other's recognition, but I don't know that I've ever seen anyone team up like that online. Well, no, that's not true. I HAVE seen where several comics all buy their stuff from the same manufacturer, and it's all sold in the same online store, but that's not quite the same thing (and I couldn't afford to deal with somebody who doesn't do the Cafe Press method anyway) This needs to be investigated further...

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

DO EET! I'm in talks with someone about doing that myself, and I'll probably use it to promote in advance a web graphic series I've had in mind for a while and am just now starting to write out. I think I'll contact a few others as well and see if I can expand it to the point where I don't even need to start my own store at all.

[Blitz]

The problem I'd have with implementing an idea like that is the fact that I just don't know all that many webcomikers... at least, not that would need to team up with somebody else to get stuff done (Like I said before, I don't read anywhere near as many comics as I used to, and the overwhelming majority of the ones I do are already well-established)

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

You probably just need to find someone with a more popular Cafe Press store than you would need someone with a more popular web comic attached to it. If a lot of people visit a popular store and see some of your awesome merchandise that they just happened to be featuring, then that's all you really need. (I guess it would be the cyber edition of sneaking your own t-shirts in a Hot Topic, except both parties have agreed to it.)

More sales would result in having revenue that can be pumped into buying more ad space. (You can use your own money in buying Project Wonderful ad space, right?) So even if your popularity won't come from the people buying your merchandise, it can still come from the use of profits from those items sold.

[Blitz]

That actually brings up a different, intriguing question: how do you gauge the popularity of a CafePress store? I mean, I can look at the sales history of MINE, but I have no idea how you'd monitor that kind of activity on someone else's...